Gun trucks and convoy escorts

[James Langham]

A larger article that grew and grew in writing...

Nitpicks and comments as ever welcome.

[pmulcahy11b]

I imagine gun trucks as one of those custom bits of equipment -- they were made to fulfill a specific need, there's no manual on their construction, they're armed and armored with whatever is available, and no one is the same as another.

[James Langham]

I imagine gun trucks as one of those custom bits of equipment -- they were made to fulfill a specific need, there's no manual on their construction, they're armed and armored with whatever is available, and no one is the same as another.

That was actually how I came to the subject until I looked at what had happened in Iraq. I think it will depend on who designs them, I imagine Pact ones as being more standardized than US ones for example.

[Legbreaker]

It's worth keeping in mind the difference in both time, place and tactical situation. Iraq is a completely different circumstance to continental USA post nuke.
So all in all, I'm with Paul and believe trucks will be created on a case by case basis depending on need and availability of resources.

[Raellus]

If you take a look at gun trucks early in the Iraq war, you'll notice very little standardization. All kinds of trucks from HUMVEEs to HEMTs were armed variously and armored with whatever was at hand ("hillbilly armor" they called it). Only later did you start seeing purpose-made armor kits, turrets, and that sort of thing.

I think that, in the Twilight War, by the time the need for gun trucks became apparent, no one really had the manufacturing capacity to create "official" armor and/or armaments packages. Therefore, gun trucks would be created ad-hoc, with whatever armor, weapons, etc. that the creators happened to have on hand.

We had quite a discussion on gun trucks a while back, James. There may be some useful info and pics here, if you decide to make any revisions. Here's the link.

http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.phpt=334&highlight=guntrucks

[James Langham]

If you take a look at gun trucks early in the Iraq war, you'll notice very little standardization. All kinds of trucks from HUMVEEs to HEMTs were armed variously and armored with whatever was at hand ("hillbilly armor" they called it). Only later did you start seeing purpose-made armor kits, turrets, and that sort of thing.

I think that, in the Twilight War, by the time the need for gun trucks became apparent, no one really had the manufacturing capacity to create "official" armor and/or armaments packages. Therefore, gun trucks would be created ad-hoc, with whatever armor, weapons, etc. that the creators happened to have on hand.

We had quite a discussion on gun trucks a while back, James. There may be some useful info and pics here, if you decide to make any revisions. Here's the link.

http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.p...ight=guntrucks

Thanks, I should have remembered that thread as I posted in it... A couple of pics will make their way into the revised version.

I can see the standardised parts arriving sooner than we think, after all Iraq was very much a case of denying there was a problem. Maybe the best way to treat it is that a local pattern at a base workshop is standardised - I am basing that thought on the way the plows were created in Normandy in 1944 and fitted very quickly.

[WallShadow]

I am in agreement with the "evolutionary" theory of improvised-to-standardised armor for gun trucks/technicals..
1. Whatever comes to hand--sandbags, brick/concrete, metal plates, chain link fence and sheet metal (pre-detonation of shaped charge warheads. The sandbags would be easily replaceable, and chain link and sheet metal are ubiquitous, except perhaps in the desert or deep jungle. I can even see garbage dumpsters cannibalized for their nice, large metal plates to be slung/welded to the vehicle.

Question of a technical nature; I have seen and read descriptions of spall liners as upgrades for APCs and other AFVs. Anyone with an Armored or Mechanized background: how hard or possible would it be to remove said spall liners from an otherwise disabled vehicle for reinstallation on a guntruck

[Raellus]

I can see the standardised parts arriving sooner than we think, after all Iraq was very much a case of denying there was a problem. Maybe the best way to treat it is that a local pattern at a base workshop is standardised - I am basing that thought on the way the plows were created in Normandy in 1944 and fitted very quickly.

True, but that was due to the nature of the fighting there. In an insurgency, there are rarely front lines, per se, and Coalition forces soon learned that unarmored and lightly armed trucks travelling more or less anywhere in country were extremely vulnerable to ambush and IED attacks. Vietnam was a similar [guerilla] conflict, therefore gun trucks became a necessity. Same with Afghanistan (both during the Soviet occupation and currently).

In a conventional war in Europe, this would not be the case. In WWII, for example, there weren't really any gun trucks in the ETO. Only when the front line began to fracture and become more porous (after the war went nuclear), would convoys likely be in much danger from enemy raiders and/or marauders. It would most likely be at that point that units would begin constructing gun trucks.

I think the latter point you make with the Hedgerow plows is spot on. Once depots saw the need for gun trucks, there would have been a lot of sharing of ideas and procedures, resulting in a fair bit of standardization, at least at the Corps level. I still think that you'd see a good deal of local variance, though, especially between cantonments that were too far apart to share ideas and resources.

[Panther Al]

I am in agreement with the "evolutionary" theory of improvised-to-standardised armor for gun trucks/technicals..
1. Whatever comes to hand--sandbags, brick/concrete, metal plates, chain link fence and sheet metal (pre-detonation of shaped charge warheads. The sandbags would be easily replaceable, and chain link and sheet metal are ubiquitous, except perhaps in the desert or deep jungle. I can even see garbage dumpsters cannibalized for their nice, large metal plates to be slung/welded to the vehicle.

Question of a technical nature; I have seen and read descriptions of spall liners as upgrades for APCs and other AFVs. Anyone with an Armored or Mechanized background: how hard or possible would it be to remove said spall liners from an otherwise disabled vehicle for reinstallation on a guntruck

Depends

Spall liners themselves really are not something that is draped on the inside and hanging loose - its usually incorporated (IE, Bonded) into the armour itself from what I saw. Doesn't make it impossible, just not very practical in my mind.

An exception I know of first hand is the M113A3. In that case, they are sliding doors that are mounted inside part of the hull:

http://personnelcarrier.tpub.com/TM-...77-24P_482.htm

You could take these out and use them - I don't know what sort of protection they would offer.

[pmulcahy11b]

I am in agreement with the "evolutionary" theory of improvised-to-standardised armor for gun trucks/technicals..
1. Whatever comes to hand--sandbags, brick/concrete, metal plates, chain link fence and sheet metal (pre-detonation of shaped charge warheads. The sandbags would be easily replaceable, and chain link and sheet metal are ubiquitous, except perhaps in the desert or deep jungle. I can even see garbage dumpsters cannibalized for their nice, large metal plates to be slung/welded to the vehicle.

Question of a technical nature; I have seen and read descriptions of spall liners as upgrades for APCs and other AFVs. Anyone with an Armored or Mechanized background: how hard or possible would it be to remove said spall liners from an otherwise disabled vehicle for reinstallation on a guntruck

There are companies that do hardening for vehicles and make spall blankets and hard kevlar slabs to install within vehicles. But it's better, as Panther says, to have the hardening company to make something that is designed for your vehicle and fits the interior like a glove (and that would include a new or reconditioned vehicle as well).

[pmulcahy11b]

You could take these out and use them - I don't know what sort of protection they would offer.

I'd be inclined to give it an AV of 1 or 2, depending on the thickness.

[schnickelfritz]

James-I like it very much overall!

As far as the US Stateside gun trucks, beyond the obvious HMMWV variants and odd M151 series vehicle, I would think you would see the following:

M35 Series 2.5 tom

M54 Series 5 ton

M939 Series 5 ton

You MAY see some of the older GMC M211 series 2.5 ton vehicles, but even in collectin circles those aren't very common and were phased out for the M35 series soon after introduction.

For heavy stuff, I would think the purpose built bank armored cars would be snapped up by whatever group was in the area, federal, state, or criminal.

Here in the states 10 wheel 6x4 dump trucks with steel bodies are cmmonplace...every town of any size has at least one excavating/earthmoving firm with one or more, plus county and state highway installations. I would think the most direct conversion of civillian vehicles would start here. I would think you could add a platform or steps inside the bed to stand on at the firing positions, possibly more armor to the bed walls, and an improvised armored cab. I could see body and machine shops cutting away most of the cab and reconstructing an armored one from sheet steel.

In my area there are places the distribute raw steel in various grades, sizes , and sheet thicknesses. I would think that would be a good place to start.

And I can't emphasize the on-site repair trucks I see to service construction sites as both captive and free lance operations...ever one I see has a crane, air tools, and welder on board, and I would imagine that there is a plasma cutter there too. All of this is self contained and while not as sweet as the US military's mobile workshop trucks, they will be invaluable to building and maintaining a county or state detachment of gun trucks.

I would think here in the states in areas away from the Mexican invasion, communities would band together to maintain a fleet (no matter how small) of gun truck vehicles for use with a reaction force, probably using state, county, or local SWAT personnel and verterans. Here in the Chicago area there are county SWAT and municipal SWAT detachments (depending on the size of the town...Chicago itself obviously having its own SWAT force), so local militias would probably start from there.

I could very much see gun truck units being used to guard whatever relief supplies areas might be receiving and the production from local harvests.

That alone could be a good start for a small scale local adventure campaign. Large but few gun trucks guarding a grain convoy to an elevetor/shipping point from a wheeled gang of some size.

In the States you will find a noticeable quantity of obsolete military vehicles that had been preserved by collectors. I know we've discussed the whole old tank thing, but there are a number of half tracks and armored vehicles from 1940-1970 in my area. You will probably see a motley fleey of ex-civillian gun trucks and a M2/M3 Half Track or two or three here and there. There is a fair amount of 1950's WP stuff here and there, BTR-152's, BTR-40's, and BRDM-1's, along with an amount of Saracens, Ferrets, Saxons, and Humber Pigs.


WW2 stuff will be the most common, but cold war stuff will exist here and there...for flavor if you will!

Thank again for the work, as always, a great job!

Dave

[pmulcahy11b]

James-I like it very much overall!

As far as the US Stateside gun trucks, beyond the obvious HMMWV variants and odd M151 series vehicle, I would think you would see the following:

M35 Series 2.5 tom

As I left my first duty post in Ft Stewart, we had just traded in the last of our battalion's M35s, and we were told that they were being phased out of active-duty service. (That was in July 1987.) When I got to Korea in August 1987, they had already traded in all their deuces for 5-tons months before. So my guess that a unit in T2K that has them is a National Guard unit or had them brought in from storage to replace losses. Or got them from another country's unit operating M35s and...didn't need them anymore.

[Raellus]

How about these

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_of_Medium_Tactical_Vehicles

It looks like they entered service, IRL, before '96, so one might encounter this line of trucks in either T2K timeline. If you do a Google search for images, you will see a few "gun-truck" versions with armored cabs and weapon station. One could easily set up some armor panels around the bed and add a couple more GPMGs and voila!

[schnickelfritz]

Over the last 10-15 years there have been a significant number of M35 series vehicles on the US surplus market...nowadays I'm seeing a number of them being surplussed out from second or third owners...in these cases state entities (Wisconsin in particular).

A friend has a 1952 M211 that came...of all things...from his local High School's bus garage where it was used as a snow plow truck for a number of years, The engine, transmission, and steering are all 1990's GMC bus parts.

Normally I see M35 series vehicles being used as brush or off road fire trucks with a semi portable fire apparatus. When they get done with them, they remove the fire apparatus from the bed and auction the truck off.

I even see a Kaiser M715 from time to time come up this way, although Chevy CUCV's and Dodge M880's (less so) are more common.

I believe many M151's were torch cut to destroy them due to the bad rap they got from rollovers rather than sold surplus in numbers...you see original/restored M151's but they aren't very common. At times it is easier to find a surplus HMMWV for sale.

There is a place 30 mile NW of here that does armored civillian vehicles, so a place like that can be an option too. If anything, I would thing the experience of the staff remaining there would vbe almost invaluable.

-Dave