Prime Base

[Gamer]

This I don't agree with you on Dragon,

"A) I changed the cover of the base. Instead of a ranch, placed in a very nontypical location I made this a location for one of the major charities of Morrow Industries, a children's hospital and hospice. This had several advantages: it allowed personnel to come and go in large numbers, with their families; since it was a real facility, the real patients, families, and staff provided good cover for Project personnel; it gave a good reason for large quantities of material to be brought up to the ridge; construction, enlargement and renovation of the many buildings at the hospital gave cover for Prime Bases' construction; the locals knew this to be a hospital for terminally ill children, they quickly learned not to get close to any of the patients or their families or to be surprised when they suddenly disappeared, this was put down to a death or recovery of a child, with the parents simply returning home; the facility could provide the core of a colony after the war; its mission would, possibly, shield it from the worst of the war, targeting a children's hospital is pretty low; it was good cover for shipping high tech equipment into Prime Base."

Not a bad idea. The hospice would also explain a small airstrip being built to handle mid-sized aircraft (one less thing to worry about when the Project goes operational).

The hospital, any hospital is still a target, it may not be by any bomb but it's a target for all the wandering refugees and military personnel.
Seriously if you had survived and was wandering by soon afterwards would you just keep on going by or would you scrounge for meds
Nobody is dumb enough to just go on by especially if the facility was in decent shape, after all a roof is a roof.
The MP personnel wouldn't have to advertise a refuge camp, it becomes one before the dust even clears.

I agree with most everything else everyone has said and I too got rid of the Phoenix team, what a waste of space.

[dragoon500ly]

This I don't agree with you on Dragon,

The hospital, any hospital is still a target, it may not be by any bomb but it's a target for all the wandering refugees and military personnel.
Seriously if you had survived and was wandering by soon afterwards would you just keep on going by or would you scrounge for meds
Nobody is dumb enough to just go on by especially if the facility was in decent shape, after all a roof is a roof.
The MP personnel wouldn't have to advertise a refuge camp, it becomes one before the dust even clears.

I agree with most everything else everyone has said and I too got rid of the Phoenix team, what a waste of space.

The initial problem with access to the base, in the module, was placing a ranch on top of a ridge. Nobody in that portion of Nevada builds ranches on top of ridges, primarily due to a lack of any reliable source of water. In and of it self, that screams "government installation" in 100 foot tall LED flashing lights. The hospice idea, especially a children's hospice for terminally ill patients makes better sense (all though the lack of a water supply rears its ugly head yet again). Another idea would be to place a open pit mine (but again, that on top of the ridge thing is kinda unique in this state).

My own personal views, after a lot of research into local conditions would be to build the ranch on the floor of the valley and then dig an access tunnel into the ridge. Instead of building a steep incline (elevators, stairs) in order to get to Level One of the Life Cylinder, I'd simply reverse stack the levels (One moving to the bottom of the cylinder) on all of the cylinders.

I also have a few thoughts on the Grand Deception....surely, at some point in time, the probability of the location of Prime being discovered by a hostile force had to have been discussed (and if it wasn't, then we have some very poor planners!). The entrance tunnel could have had a series of "annexes" holding food stuffs, clothing, building and medical supplies then end at Post one and the "official" three "pod" base. This would also allow for the transcore to be deleted from the first level with access up to level two through a hidden staircase. So if anyone did crack the entrance tunnel, a prepared deception is already in place (besides, these emergency supplies could always be issued to the local teams).

Just a few thoughts!

[Gamer]

Nobody in that portion of Nevada builds ranches on top of ridges, primarily due to a lack of any reliable source of water.

I had one at Eagle peak in 87 and I had no problem with water.
Only problem had was fire.
It only screams government facility in hindsight.
Go through all the ranches like this you see on maps all over the north american continent and you'll see just how many aren't government facilities.

A mine was the better way to do it, especially if you place toxic mine tailing warning signs around the perimeter.
A better option would have been toxic waste facility.
Before the war and after the war it would keep people away, the last thing the refugees want is more contamination.
You can't just build such a facility with thoughts of only keeping people away pre-war.
Operational security before, during and after the war MUST be taken into account or don't even bother with it.
When survivors are roaming around after the war they are going to be looking for places of safety and a hospital is about the very worst thing anyone could have come up with.
It offers refugees shelter and possible medical help, it gives military personnel a nice FOB.
Might as well put up a giant neon sign "Refugees welcome" and a continuous fireworks display.
A hospital would be the very first thing I got rid of from the book.
Again, operational Security, before, during, and after the war must be maintained.
You don't reveal the site until you are absolutely sure it is the right time to do so.
If this group of people are even remotely good at planning for contingencies they would never even think of something so ridiculous as a hospital.

If this group was to think of creating refugee camps they would have already planned for that contingency.
Prepared sites would have already been created, using such guises as dude ranches, retreats, even hollywood movie sets like some old west towns similar to these:

http://employees.oxy.edu/jerry//iverson.htm

http://employees.oxy.edu/jerry//melody.htm

http://employees.oxy.edu/jerry/corrigan/corrigan.htm

http://www.billcotter.com/disney/golden.htm

http://employees.oxy.edu/jerry//bell.htm

http://circlemcity.com/

http://www.nps.gov/samo/planyourvisit/paramountranch.htm

I like your deception plan, but one problem there, once the deception base is discovered what is going to make the badguys move on
What keeps them from staying and holding the facility
You don't know if this is the entire hostile force or just a part of it, you take it back and then they come back and on it goes back and forth and the primary facility will eventually get discovered, it's only a matter of when not if.
Great, now I'm giving myself a headache thinking about it.

[dragoon500ly]

I had one at Eagle peak in 87 and I had no problem with water. Only problem had was fire. It only screams government facility in hindsight. Go through all the ranches like this you see on maps all over the north american continent and you'll see just how many aren't government facilities.

A mine was the better way to do it, especially if you place toxic mine tailing warning signs around the perimeter. A better option would have been toxic waste facility. Before the war and after the war it would keep people away, the last thing the refugees want is more contamination. You can't just build such a facility with thoughts of only keeping people away pre-war. Operational security before, during and after the war MUST be taken into account or don't even bother with it. When survivors are roaming around after the war they are going to be looking for places of safety and a hospital is about the very worst thing anyone could have come up with. It offers refugees shelter and possible medical help, it gives military personnel a nice FOB. Might as well put up a giant neon sign "Refugees welcome" and a continuous fireworks display. A hospital would be the very first thing I got rid of from the book. Again, operational Security, before, during, and after the war must be maintained. You don't reveal the site until you are absolutely sure it is the right time to do so. If this group of people are even remotely good at planning for contingencies they would never even think of something so ridiculous as a hospital.

If this group was to think of creating refugee camps they would have already planned for that contingency. Prepared sites would have already been created, using such guises as dude ranches, retreats, even hollywood movie sets like some old west towns similar to these:

I like your deception plan, but one problem there, once the deception base is discovered what is going to make the badguys move on What keeps them from staying and holding the facility You don't know if this is the entire hostile force or just a part of it, you take it back and then they come back and on it goes back and forth and the primary facility will eventually get discovered, it's only a matter of when not if.
Great, now I'm giving myself a headache thinking about it.

Buy stock in Bayer....

Sitting down and thinking it over, a mine that works over a 10-15 year stretch and then closes when "the vein ran out" may be a better approach; I like the HAZMAT idea, even plays into canon (Starnaman Incident's Delta Base cover).

As far as the modified deception, the part of the canon that I liked was having the remaining transcore in the Supply Cylinder and its "leaking radiation hazard"...that would certainly encourage people to move on, and with a lack of power (no water, no air circulation) what use would the base be

As far as the refugee sites, no argument from me! I think the covers would be great. My point is that any refugee site would need to be placed as far as possible from Prime Base. Of all TMP installations, Prime is the one that requires "no assistance of any kind to refugees". Prime should be directing other teams to move into the area and encourage refugees to move away from the area, I can even see a PsyOps Team telling stories about the deadly monsters in the area, perhaps even stashing a can or three of nuclear waste and then using their geiger counters to "prove" how deadly the radiation in the area is.

Just a couple of ideas....now going back to watch all of the idiots doing the Black Friday thang!

[Gamer]

Buy stock in Bayer....

why docs have me on Flexeril (migraines)

The only thing that would stop me from using deception as a base would be such a hazmat leak.
No power or water means nothing as it is still a viable location/asset for now.

Having deception near prime is a very bad Idea.
Once Deception base is discovered it can no longer be used by MP personnel. The primary reason is people like me would place an OP near there to see if any more people appear and if the MP personnel at prime (or anywhere else really) are that stupid to return they just jeopardized themselves.

Im right there with you on the whole refugee thing though, they should be kept away from Prime.

Prime should be directing other teams to move into the area and encourage refugees to move away from the area

I'm of the mindset that Prime should already have it's own teams to "encourage" people to move on.
Deadly monster tales might only encourage some of the more heavily armed to go deal with the "deadly monsters".

For a modern game I'd be more likely going to to make a MP "front" out of something like these guys:

http://www.hardenedstructures.com/index.html

who built things like this for other "fronts" like these guys:

http://www.undergroundvaults.com/

or a "front" like this http://www.hardenedstructures.com/missile-silos.html
or this

http://probyte2u.hubpages.com/hub/Vivos-Underground-Security-Shelter-For-2012-and-Beyond

Made for a rich 2012 "nut case".

[dragoon500ly]

Now here's a thought.....

We have Prime Base built on the ridge with the mission annex tunnel running northwards along the ridge. The only openings in the canon Prime Base is the decon entrance, the two exposure modules and the access through the ave for the heliport. But how about a fifth entrance

This is an elevator shaft that runs down to the base of the ridge. Here it enters a "deception" base. It has a tunnel leading from a deserted ranch with supply annexes (all empty except for scraps and garbage), the tunnel ends in a security station with a decon setup and then a small, three or four level base that has already been "abandoned" and only needing an infusion of thermite and gasoline for that "just roasted" effect. Anyone breaking the security finds the base abandoned. Prime Base Security could monitor anyone who accesses or occupies the base, just in case they can be used to further Project needs.

As for the concealed elevator access, there are no ladders, no stairs, just that tube running 400 feet straight up. And as sadistic PD....there would be a ton or so of concrete slabs ready to be loaded into the elevator...right before its cables are cut.

Just a thought!

[ArmySGT.]

Here's another thought.

Why in each of these modules (Prime Base and Desert Search) did the planners bury the heavy equipment necessary to open the base inside the base

Really Every undertaking to get started begins with a pick and a shovel

Let the damn door open inward and have a area to one side to dump the spoils, then use the loader bucket to open the exit ramp.

Why wear out or worse injure personnel just to open the damn door.

[dragoon500ly]

Here's another thought.

Why in each of these modules (Prime Base and Desert Search) did the planners bury the heavy equipment necessary to open the base inside the base

Really Every undertaking to get started begins with a pick and a shovel

Let the damn door open inward and have a area to one side to dump the spoils, then use the loader bucket to open the exit ramp.

Why wear out or worse injure personnel just to open the damn door.

I get the impression that the author wanted to torment the players....

Have to agree, that is a far more logical approach.

[ArmySGT.]

The Hydroponics set up in PB is pretty small for 500 people. That are of N. Nevada and SE Oregon is pretty desolate scrub too.

So.............. food. What where they and the Teams in the Field going to eat when the ration packs run out

Yeah it is gonna grow food, but not a lot and not much variety. Aquaponics is a better set up as it will add fish (tilapia, catfish, carp), crayfish (red claws are 1lb!), fresh water mollusks, as sources of protein to the diet. Still for 500

Would need a whole cylinder just itself.

Have you noticed there isn't a cannery and/or a freeze dry facility in there What replaces the ration packs at 30 days into the operation

[dragoon500ly]

The Hydroponics set up in PB is pretty small for 500 people. That are of N. Nevada and SE Oregon is pretty desolate scrub too.

So.............. food. What where they and the Teams in the Field going to eat when the ration packs run out

Yeah it is gonna grow food, but not a lot and not much variety. Aquaponics is a better set up as it will add fish (tilapia, catfish, carp), crayfish (red claws are 1lb!), fresh water mollusks, as sources of protein to the diet. Still for 500

Would need a whole cylinder just itself.

Have you noticed there isn't a cannery and/or a freeze dry facility in there What replaces the ration packs at 30 days into the operation

To really make Prime work, it looks like the Supply Cylinder would have to be gutted, moving the heavy industrial stuff out into the mission annex, and using the freed space for aquaponics as well as a cannery/freeze dry facility. I'm really starting to think that a fourth cylinder may be required just to help fix the obvious points!

[ArmySGT.]

To really make Prime work, it looks like the Supply Cylinder would have to be gutted, moving the heavy industrial stuff out into the mission annex, and using the freed space for aquaponics as well as a cannery/freeze dry facility. I'm really starting to think that a fourth cylinder may be required just to help fix the obvious points!

Oh no you gonna need a fifth cylinder...........

Where is the factories and the foundries to make tools, replacement parts, even complete machines Fusion power packs are good for 18 months I think there is facilities for recharging one (helium 3 ) but what if you need a new one

Detroit won't be making any of those, let alone any new V-150 parts.

[dragoon500ly]

Oh no you gonna need a fifth cylinder...........

Where is the factories and the foundries to make tools, replacement parts, even complete machines Fusion power packs are good for 18 months I think there is facilities for recharging one (helium 3 ) but what if you need a new one

Detroit won't be making any of those, let alone any new V-150 parts.

I'd remove the radiation dump in Supply and replace it with a fusion recharge facility. I'd also move the industrial stuff out into the mission annex tunnels (and possible add 2-4 additional tunnels either running the same way or at cross angles), Ammunition needs to be at the end of a very long tunnel and as far as possible from Prime, and behind several sets of very thick blast doors!

Moving the industrial stuff out of supply opens up those areas for additional farming, canning, freeze-drying, etc. And moving the industrial stuff out into the tunnels gets them out and away from the living areas and allows for more space (if needed).

[ArmySGT.]

"B) The Project had almost no need of transuranic radioactives. Fusion uses Hydrogen and makes Helium (and a neutron). The radioactive sludge at the bottom of Prime Base has no reason to be there. Additionally, NO ONE (except the Federal Government at Hanford) stores high energy radioactivies this way. What did the Project do Place its idiot children in the safety department Write this stuff out, its stupid!"

Concur.

I had a thought. This could explain the radioactive materials necessary for the deception to work and removes the implausible stockpile of radioactive waste from inside Prime Base.

Easy Peasy.

Volunteers that were going to die anyway.

A few Science Team Members in HAAM suits entered to center of the blast zone from the Krell nuke and collected radioactive debris.

Done.

[robj3]

Terry Sofian wrote the 'Prime Base Repairman' article.
He has a background in fire and radiation safety (I think he mentions this).

A pdf copy can be found in the files area of the Morrow Project yahoo group.

Prime Base needs a rewrite.

The only advantage to the Nevada location is a relatively low amount of
post-attack fallout exposure (from FEMA's NAPB-90); the lack of water,
arable land and proximity to targets like Nellis AFB, Hawthorne and Sierra Army Depots are big problems.

The location of ELF transmitters is limited by the conductivity of rock, hence the location of the U.S. system in Wisconsin and Michigan where the geology is right. The Project isn't going to have an ELF transmitter.

Alternate communication modalities with continental range include shortwave and meteor burst. The problem with these are reliability in the post attack environment, but data rates are high and large transmitters and receivers are not required.

Other options include "stratellites" (balloons or UAVs) to act as very tall antennae.

Really big Projects could use something like 'Perimetr' or the US ERCS (Minuteman ICBMs with transmitters) to send the wake up signal.

I agree with many of the comments upthread.

The neutron bombardment from an operating reactor[1] may produce considerable amounts of radioactive material (e.g. the reactor walls and heat exchange machinery).

However, the half life of induced radioactivity is short (30 years), and after 150 years detectable but harmless levels would be present.

A hardened complex with the cover story of a mine or waste storage facility
makes the most sense - it provides a good cover story. For later collapses,
archival storage or secure data centres could be another cover story.


Rob

========

[1] Criteria for Project fusion fuels:
- Stability - nothing with short half-lives (e.g. tritium's [T] 12 years)
- Relatively cheap (helium-3 is 1 part in 10,000 of the helium obtained from
gas and oil fields, so is horrendously expensive)
- Minimal neutron production.
- Net positive energy yield (reaction energies below are expressed in mega
electron volts [MeV]; 1 MeV = 1.6 x 10^(-13) joules).

This leaves us with:

a. Deuterium (hydrogen-2, D)
Found in seawater (0.02%); stable.

D + D -> T + p + 4.03MeV (50%)
D + D -> He-3 + n + 3.27MeV (50%)

Proton (p) can be trapped electrically and its kinetic energy harnessed.
Neutron (n) has an energy of 2.45 MeV and is a radiation problem.
It may be possible to encourage the first reaction over the second.

Optional reaction to use the He-3:
D + He-3 -> He-4 + p + 18.3MeV

Big advantages: one fuel type, storable as heavy water. Relatively easy to
initiate, high energy density.

Big disadvantage: neutron production - major radiation hazard. Need for
coolant jacket, heat exchangers, etc. to efficiently produce electricity.

b. Lithium-6 (Li-6)
Makes up about 6% of naturally occurring lithium. Stable.

D + Li-6 -> 2He-4 + 22.4MeV

Alternate (side) reactions:
D + Li-6 -> He-3 + He-4 + n + 2.56MeV
D + Li-6 -> Li-7 + p + 5 MeV
D + Li-6 -> Be-7 + n + 3.4MeV

If the fusion plant includes a proton source (synchotron) and supply
(hydrogen) we could use:
p + Li-6 -> He-4 + He-3 + 4MeV

The big problem for the Project is the military demand for lithium-6 (for
the fusion stage of nuclear weapons).
Another, lesser one is the need for deuterium or hydrogen (2 fuel
materials).
It's also relatively hard to start (worse than boron) and energy density is
low.

c. Boron-11 (B-11)
80% of natural boron; stable.

p + B-11 -> 3He-4 + 8.7MeV

Needs a source and supply of protons.

On reflection, the best candidate. Minimal messy neutrons from helium-boron
side reactions (~0.2%), no proliferation potential, no diversion of
traceable materials with military applications.

The biggest disadvantage is that it's relatively hard to start (~16x harder
than deuterium).

[DigTw0Grav3s]

Hey all.

Apologies for the resurrected thread, but I figured it would be better to consolidate my questions here instead of starting fresh.

Has anyone considered modernizing Prime Base Technology is a lot more advanced now than it was in 1987, and I subsequently believe that Prime could get a great deal more "bang for its' buck", even if you keep it confined to three modules.

Computers would get much, much smaller. This could either free a great deal of the space in Ops, or give the base room to double-down, and install larger systems, possibly cloud-based. A cloud system could be used as a centralized processing resource, which could be dynamically allocated to whichever department needed it most.

Flight Operations is fine conceptually (ignoring the tunnel thing), but could definitely benefit from modern technology. The V-22 Osprey's S/VTOL capability and long(er) legs make it a practical shoe-in for the hangar. Some kind of UAV like the Fire Scout would be great for maintaining situational awareness around Prime, and assisting any patrols that get in firefights nearby.

The exposure modules could probably use some growth, too. Perhaps a third dedicated module with area search radars would be wise; the project had the air base planned for some time, and it never hurts to know what's in your area.

I love some of the ideas floated. A fourth cylinder would be really cool to design from the floor up, as would a dedicated industrial capability. In my mind, both life and support would be much different.

Life should probably be converted over to entirely housing and living facilities. All agriculture should be moved into a separate module that can take advantage of a dedicated vertical farming design. Using gravity to manage water flow would be great for the agricultural viability of the base. If you make it a full cylinder, you also have tons of room for an ark-like seed bank and genetic storehouse, which is a cool set piece. Thematically, more cryo-tubes fit here. Biochemical reactors could be useful for growing and deactivating microorganisms for the purpose of medicine. You could also put a secondary fire station here.

Support should get a workover as well. Whether or not you move industrial gear to a different part of the base, you're going to get a lot of space in here either way. Technology has scaled down quite a bit. Printing, for example, no longer needs a dedicated level for the same output that the Project wanted. I think a good chunk of that space should be dedicated to 3D Printing technology. Imagine the applications of a small, robust, intelligent system that can make a three-dimensional copy of anything you have a CAD file for. I would also like to see support (or a hypothetical industrial cylinder) get a limited petroleum / ethanol refinement facility, if that's possible.

What do you guys usually put in the space that was left unallocated for the Phoenix Project