Energy Alternatives

[welsh]

I guess this goes back to what you keep and what you toss. I see the logic of many of your posts, but in the end there are two problems.

(1) Fusion is just too great an advance on technology in the way its depicted. I could see a larger power station that creates the electricity necessary to power the vehicles and that these power stations could become key strategic assets of the project that need to be placed on-line within a short window, but having every team moving about the land with a portable fusion power station seems too easy an escape. Ok, you don't want them running around collecting fuel- fine. Utilize an alternative source of energy. Large wind turbines Massive solar panel fields There has to be some form of technology that isn't quite so advanced. I can see long-term batteries that last for a year or so, but fusion power.

(2) I know its canon- but the time and dimensional jumping Morrow has also been a thorn in the game. I'd rather have an organization that ran the math probabilities and predicted some massive global catastrophe was inevitable and had decided it was worth investing some kind of plan for when catastrophe happens.

Don't get me wrong, I would prefer if the game didn't becomes a search for fuel, but there are really no better energy alternatives Bio or alcohol fuels seem a better choice and flexibility in energy development. Ok, large nuclear reactors, wind farms or solar power fields need to be built and defended, but why not make that part of the game as well.

There seems to be a trade off- how flexible and free do you want your teams to be vs how believable is the fusion energy and the problems fusion brings.

[ArmySGT.]

I guess this goes back to what you keep and what you toss. I see the logic of many of your posts, but in the end there are two problems.

Dont worry about it. Even if I do disagree, I do find the perspectives interesting and feel like a came away from the discussion with something else in the tool kit.

(1) Fusion is just too great an advance on technology in the way its depicted. I could see a larger power station that creates the electricity necessary to power the vehicles and that these power stations could become key strategic assets of the project that need to be placed on-line within a short window, but having every team moving about the land with a portable fusion power station seems too easy an escape. Ok, you don't want them running around collecting fuel- fine. Utilize an alternative source of energy. Large wind turbines Massive solar panel fields There has to be some form of technology that isn't quite so advanced. I can see long-term batteries that last for a year or so, but fusion power.

One could argue for those. Hard to hide them something that big and have it sit offline. Large power plants need large workforces to run them, those need to be housed and feed. I suppose the regional bases could have power plants that can operate at many times in excess what the base would require and have such a workforce on hand.

The problem with wind turbines or large fields of solar panels is getting those built and running in the beginning stages of the 3-5 year plan with the whole of North America a radioactive and biowarfare plague hell. Those take a heck of a long time to assemble.

Batteries that last a year at 100% arent any more feasible now than a fusion plant. The best lithium ions are only good for a few hundred miles, hence the move to hybrids.

If you feel like fusion is going to get away from you, restrict the output. The V-150 cant be the village powerplant and move around. The sockets on the outside are limited to one 220 and two 110. Even the output of the power plant can be restricted down to that of a 5000 watt home generator. The high torque electric motors needed to move a V-150 dont require that much voltage only a lot of amperage.

(2) I know its canon- but the time and dimensional jumping Morrow has also been a thorn in the game. I'd rather have an organization that ran the math probabilities and predicted some massive global catastrophe was inevitable and had decided it was worth investing some kind of plan for when catastrophe happens.

That is more or less what the Project has done. It seems the Nuclear War is inevitable (Terminator II Judgement Day) but, Bruce cant predict how or when. He can show proof, but tragically cannot prevent it. On the flipside, the rest seems to be people relying on predictions and models that they can grasp.

Don't get me wrong, I would prefer if the game didn't becomes a search for fuel, but there are really no better energy alternatives Bio or alcohol fuels seem a better choice and flexibility in energy development. Ok, large nuclear reactors, wind farms or solar power fields need to be built and defended, but why not make that part of the game as well.

Biofuels has been a disaster here in the U.S. without a nuclear war! The acreage to feed people and farm livestock diverted to make fuel for cars didnt lower the costs and skyrocketed the costs of food. The yields of oils from acreage is pretty low. Low enough that a truck fleet would need to sit idle for half a year to build enough fuel stocks to operate usefully. The choice becomes feed the people or fuel the trucks.

http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html

There seems to be a trade off- how flexible and free do you want your teams to be vs how believable is the fusion energy and the problems fusion brings.

I prefer a mobile team with a fusion powered vehicle vs one that stops to barter for fuel or spends days harvesting high carbohydrate yield crops to make alcohol.

Having an armored car has been a bigger pain in the neck for the PD than it being fusion powered. You cant get the players out of the can.

[RandyT0001]

Biofuels has been a disaster here in the U.S. without a nuclear war! The acreage to feed people and farm livestock diverted to make fuel for cars didnt lower the costs and skyrocketed the costs of food. The yields of oils from acreage is pretty low. Low enough that a truck fleet would need to sit idle for half a year to build enough fuel stocks to operate usefully. The choice becomes feed the people or fuel the trucks.
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html

Biofuels in the US have been a disaster because of politics. Rising fuel costs and rising food costs are not due to acreage diverted to biofuels. Per your link, cotton produces 35 gallons of oil per acre, peanuts produce 113 gallons per acre and according to this link http://talk.newagtalk.com/forums/thr...layType=nested a farmer only uses about 5-6 gallons of fuel per acre which includes tilling, spraying, and harvesting, including the truck to collect the crop as it is harvested. In fact, the website you referenced talks about the "choice" of feeding the people or fueling the trucks here and, specifically, here. There are communities that use biofuels in third world countries because it is cheaper than buying commercial fuels. In the absence of present US politics, biofuels are indeed a good alternative fuel source.

[ArmySGT.]

Biofuels in the US have been a disaster because of politics. Rising fuel costs and rising food costs are not due to acreage diverted to biofuels. Per your link, cotton produces 35 gallons of oil per acre, peanuts produce 113 gallons per acre and according to this link http://talk.newagtalk.com/forums/thr...layType=nested a farmer only uses about 5-6 gallons of fuel per acre which includes tilling, spraying, and harvesting, including the truck to collect the crop as it is harvested. In fact, the website you referenced talks about the "choice" of feeding the people or fueling the trucks here and, specifically, here. There are communities that use biofuels in third world countries because it is cheaper than buying commercial fuels. In the absence of present US politics, biofuels are indeed a good alternative fuel source.

I don't want to get into politics here.

I am thinking of the dump truck I drive on a regular basis. The computerized management system (the truck is county property and pretty fancy) says on an average run hauling 12 tons of gravel from 6500 feet up 20+ miles up Highway 285 to 8500 feet the average is 5.7 miles per gallon.

I am not worried about the farm usage to grown and harvest the crop as tillage can be made for a fuel producing crop or cellulose bearing crops can be distilled for ethanol on the side.

I am thinking of the heavy equipment, the semi tractor/trailers, the trains. Even with the mandate by Law to include 10% ethanol per gallon of gasoline (not feasible for diesel) the ethanol plants are shutting down due to costs.

It is possible, and more probable in a scenario like TMP where the population is so small the crops for fuel doesn't impact the food supply.

When the ethanol craze was in full production the U.S. Dept of Ag sold all of the strategic reserve of grains to stabilize the world market. The costs set off rioting in Mexico and is one factor in the Arab Spring mass protests.

[mmartin798]

One other possibility for alternative fuel is ammonia. Gallon for gallon you get the same energy as gasoline assuming you have an effective way of cracking it, like this: http://phys.org/news/2014-06-hydroge...uture-car.html

Making ammonia in large quantities is a 1920's technology. Could fairly easily take place on an old coal mine or other significant source of methane. Plus you can use it as fertilizer, so there is a reason for communities to make it happen.

[kato13]

If you have energy and water you can crack hydrogen.

[mmartin798]

True, but using ammonia and cracking it lets you use hydrogen more easily as a motor fuel.

[welsh]

Sgt- I think the idea of restricting the capacity of fusion power is a wise call. That said, I am not sure if I agree with what you are saying about bio-fuels although the concern of having teams trying to spend way too much time collecting the materials for a bio-fuel could be problematic for a game. And while I agree that bio-fuels in the US has been difficult, other countries use a variety of bio-fuels more effectively. Brazil has been utilizing fuels based on sugar cane for awhile and Mauritius utilize a sugar derivative for much of their power.

As for batteries- you are probably right that long-life batteries are probably still a long time coming and so we have a stronger move towards hybrids. But I would think that more advanced generations of battery power (as well as bio-fuel) is perhaps a bit more realistic than fusion power. That said, I am no physicist so perhaps I am dead wrong.

Agreed- building a wind farm or solar farm when the country is supposed to be recovering from a nuclear war doesn't make a lot of sense. But it is a longer-term goal that the project probably should be thinking about- especially if the fusion power isn't long-lasting. Rebuilding civilization will require energy development. Depending on the campaign, that might be the broad goals of a project- developing and harnessing energy given the difficult landscape at play.

So far, I am liking Kato13's ideas on this, although I probably wouldn't go much further than regional fusion plants that can be utilized to charge vehicles powered by long-life batteries. This would put pressure on teams to recover regional bases, require some defensive thinking around certain fixed but strategically vital assets and force to operate closer with local communities.

[kato13]

So far, I am liking Kato13's ideas on this, although I probably wouldn't go much further than regional fusion plants that can be utilized to charge vehicles powered by long-life batteries. This would put pressure on teams to recover regional bases, require some defensive thinking around certain fixed but strategically vital assets and force to operate closer with local communities.

I am glad you found some of it useful.

I want to reiterate that I have total respect for canon Morrow project, but I came into the game a little sideways via the ProjectPhoenix.zip. I think this makes me a little more likely to mix things up a bit.

I originally had the fusion plants small enough to be carried in the bed of a HMMWV but I decided to scale that up to make mobility more restricted. I have quite a few plants that could eventually be available to teams, but I suspect that I would make something "wrong" with each of them.

• Bolt Hole plant - Potentially Low on fuel
• Settlement cache - Location known to 5-8 teams so very possibly already taken. This location could actually be staked out by those with a grudge against the project.
• Regional powerplants - Location only vaguely known.

These options open up a lot of gaming possibilities if you want to keep teams running via fusion.

When I decided to use multifuel engines I did a lot of research into what is necessary for biodiesel and ethanol production. Beyond my discovery that Methanol is not an option (see here), I discovered that Twilight 2000 vastly overestimated the weight and vastly underestimated the production capabilities of small stills.

Analysis of real world equipment would produce a kit that significantly outperform the "small still" from Twilight 2000 (that comes in at 700kg and only produces 5 liters a day).

I am still working on exactly what a field project ethanol kit would consist of but the most basic kit I could come up with would consist of

1 X Corona Grain Mill 6kg per hour hand 12kg motorized
1 X Meth/Ethanol Refining Tower 20 L Distilation/hour to 96%
4 X Barrel 208L Steel, 16 Gauge Airtight lid
3 X Barrel heating bands
1 X Barrel Boiling Unit Multifuel
1 X Molecular Sieve Ethanol Dehydrator 25kg zeolite/heating unit/pipes
1 X Pump 20 GPM, electric Fueling Station

This comes in at around 280 kg and 40 cubic feet (the volume due to the fact that I have not yet been able to find durable heat resistant 55 gallon drums that nest). Please note it would weight 800 kg more during production but from a storage and transportation perspective these numbers are good.

Conservatively this setup would produce 15 liters a day from cellulose (with project magic or sulfuric acid) and 30 liters a day from sugar crops. With precisely Genetically engineered Yeast and Zymomonas you could probably increase those numbers by 50% or more. I feel the project would work hard on cellulose to ethanol (something that is being worked on now so this is not fantasy science). If they get that then crop waste can be a fuel source and eventually switch grass could be planted to provide a very energy dense crop.

The fact that you could scale up the 55gal drums with needing proportionally fewer refining towers, dehydrators and pumps means that as the scale goes up the production goes up faster than the weight. Volume would still still scale lineally until I find something that nests.

More permanent production facilities would use something more durable than 55 gal drums, but those will work in the field for a while.

Biodiesel Kits already exist in the world so I have already databased one.

Biodiesel Kit

http://games.juhlin.com/equipment/kit_list.htmlparent=1907

If I recall correctly this setup, given sufficient oil (and pure alcohol) could produce something like 400 liters a day.


If I ever further refine these numbers or kits I will let you guys know.

[ArmySGT.]

Used for rain barrels and aquaponics after the food and beverage industry is done with them.

http://www.coloradotankandbarrel.com/index.phpmain_page=product_info&cPath=9&products_id=37

[kato13]

Used for rain barrels and aquaponics after the food and beverage industry is done with them.

http://www.coloradotankandbarrel.com...products_id=37

These are great for final storage of ethanol or biodiesel or just for water storage. However I don't think they would take the 100C boiling heat nor the 37C fermentation heat and pressure that the 55 gal drums would.

I will defiantly add them to my project inventory though. They might be where the teams store their initial alcohol in their boltholes.

[mmartin798]

IBCs are made from HDPE, so it has a melting point of about 120C. Without knowing the pressures you are referring to, I can't comment about the suitability there, but if the temperatures are reasonably controlled, you should be able to manage 100C for a number of cycles before degradation takes place. Then all you would need to do is rotate the production containers into a storage role and put a fresher one into the production system. It may still be an overall viable solution if steel drums are not available.

[kato13]

My original research was influenced by home brewing related sites. There appears to be a strong prejudice against HDPE there, but that is probably related to an obsession with taste. They really push metal.

Looking at scientific notes regarding HDPE it very easily could be used for the fermentation phase. The heat retention characteristics of HDPE actually would help reduce the energy needed from the heating bands.

The boiling, evaporation and cooling phases would be difficult though. The resistance to heat transfer would slow the transition to boiling temps (water in the first case ethanol in the second) and significantly increase cooling time.


The nitty gritty details.
(Forgive any mistakes as this is from memory) With a high grade steel 55 gal drum Generally you need to see

1. 2 hours to bring to a boil (1st Heating phase)
2. 4 hours at 100 degrees (Breakdown phase)
3. 2 hours to reduce temperature (cooling phase)
4. 36-48 hours at ~37 degrees (Fermentation phase)
5. 1.5 hour to bring to an ethanol boil (2nd Heating phase)
6. 3 hours at ~78 degrees (Evaporation phase)

The metal containers work well as you can use the boiling unit to get the mix to 78+ quickly as you can heat the bottom to hundreds of degrees via direct flame. However they would need more energy input during the longer fermentation phase due to radiant heat loss. This requires a intermittent burn (less desirable but greater flexibility in fuels) or heating bands (very precise temperature control but needs electricity).

The raw materials can also assuredly stay in the container for the entire process without worrying about heat degradation of the container. If you have 4 barrels like my kit suggests you can set up a pretty nice rotating 4 day schedule. 1 barrel in phase 1-3 , 2 in phase 4 and 1 in phase 5-6

As I said earlier HDPE would be great for the fermentation phase and storage. I still need to look at details of energy transfer before I completely dismiss HDPE as a one container solution. My biggest concern is that direct heat by flame is not an option.

Using only external heat for boiling and radiant heat for cooling and expecting that heat to move through the HDPE entirely would would increase the production time. I have found some numbers regarding heating bands from totally electrical brewing sites. To reach a boil in this container i think you are looking at 8-12 hours at 20,000 watts. So we are probably seeing about a 33-50% increase in the total production time.

The heating would probably require a finely tuned and insulated electrical heating cover for the bottom 2/3rds of the HDPE container. As it is insulated it would need to be removed for the cooling phase. Cooling would be even slower than heating and could not really be assisted unless the electrical cover was dual purpose (heating/cooling). While possible and desirable this is getting more complicated (compressors/radiators/etc). I suppose this unit could also be used to heating and cooling tents or such as I always like multi use equipment when putting anything in the project.

I think hdpe could work really well in a larger setup and I will certainly consider it when I work on the project equivalent of the T2k medium and more likely large still.

edit.

In case anyone is using my production timeline I realized I forgot phase 7 which is running the 96% pure alcohol through the zeolites. The is independent of the heating characteristics of the containers but would add another few hours to the total process. I always assumed it would from Jerrycan to Jerrycan given the smaller volumes.

[Old Fart]

energy alt's

A good alternative for fuel used by my groups in TW2K is a mounted gasification unit built to burn wood. This worked best with gasoline engines as diesel engines must be modified. This is because wood gas still needs a spark to ignite. The most difficult part of making a gasification unit besides the welding is the filtration of the gasses so ash dos not get into the engine.

[ArmySGT.]

A good alternative for fuel used by my groups in TW2K is a mounted gasification unit built to burn wood. This worked best with gasoline engines as diesel engines must be modified. This is because wood gas still needs a spark to ignite. The most difficult part of making a gasification unit besides the welding is the filtration of the gasses so ash dos not get into the engine.

I think the predominant wood gassifier scenario here is static motors like generators. Reliable electric power is a wonder 150 years after the war.