The Back up Prime

[ArmySGT.]

So we have discussed this a time or two in conjunction with Prime Base itself or how the Project would have functioned if the Plan had worked.

So let's take it in and off itself. I personally know of nothing canon related except to allude that a functional backup exists with the personnel in cryosleep.

Okay everyone is asleep but, how many personnel does PB2 have

Is PB2 the same scale as PB1 or larger, or smaller

Where geographically PB1 is located in northen redacted to avoid a near miss by a soviet strike.

Is PB2 situated the same way Is PB2 located on the opposite coast as PB1, or is it offshore in the U.S. Virgin islands, the Aleutians, or the Hawaiian chain

Does PB2 also have a large contingent of non combatants

More commo

More production facilities

More supplies

Or is it the prototype that was moved to backup status with PB1 online Essentially meaning it is at best half the scale of PB1.

Is it compromised Is it knock offline by Soviets or suspicious elements of the U.S. forces striking out in all directions

Does it have any capabilities that PB1 did not offensive, defensive, or purely reconstruction

What kind of personnel were emplaced there

Why hasn't Bruce himself awoken them

[mmartin798]

Why hasn't Bruce himself awoken them

This last part is answered in canon. He does not know where either one is.

[cosmicfish]

Okay everyone is asleep but, how many personnel does PB2 have

Is PB2 the same scale as PB1 or larger, or smaller

I think in order to answer that question you would need to define what other function PB2 would fill with PB1 operational. For example, the XO of a ship takes over if the CO is incapacitated, but if the CO is fine then the XO still has a host of responsibilities. So what does PB2 do

If you/we/canon doesn't have a solid answer, then I would suggest that PB2 is probably just a slightly beefed-up regional command base. Take a normal RCB and give it a bit better comms and planning staff, but not much - you would have to assume that resources could be better spent elsewhere.

Where geographically PB1 is located in northen redacted to avoid a near miss by a soviet strike.

Is PB2 situated the same way Is PB2 located on the opposite coast as PB1, or is it offshore in the U.S. Virgin islands, the Aleutians, or the Hawaiian chain

I would assume opposite coast but mainland. You have regional command bases already, if you need an HQ off CONUS you probably don't have a Project to command any more.

Does PB2 also have a large contingent of non combatants

Almost certainly not.

More commo

Than what PB1 Absolutely not. But probably more than anyone else. Communications is probably the most vital requirement of command.

More production facilities

More supplies

While PB1 probably would have seen some advantage in having so much collocated, spreading the rest out seems to make more sense. That is, the total risk to the Project is probably minimized by having PB2 be just a planning and coordination center, with as little else as possible.

Or is it the prototype that was moved to backup status with PB1 online Essentially meaning it is at best half the scale of PB1.

I suppose it could be an outdated facility, but if so it would be likely stripped down and largely empty.

Is it compromised Is it knock offline by Soviets or suspicious elements of the U.S. forces striking out in all directions

Yes, it is compromised. One way or the other, the story of TMP requires that all national command elements are out of the way. If PB2 existed, it was either destroyed or kept from waking.

BTW, it is always worthwhile to remember that the creators (and continuers) of this game took a lot of liberties with "good sense planning" to create the gaming environment they desired. There are times when "this doesn't make sense" is the correct thing to say, and your choices are either to go off-canon or ignore the problem.

Does it have any capabilities that PB1 did not offensive, defensive, or purely reconstruction

I cannot see why it would.

What kind of personnel were emplaced there

Assuming that it is a beefed-up regional command base, I would say it would have the best crew available for those bases, with a carefully set of skills that would allow them to rebuild PB1's most important functions on the skeletal framework of PB2. I would add a 3-9 man Phoenix contingent as well - it always bugged me that Phoenix would be in one location, those guys would have known how ridiculous a risk that was, having at least one other Phoenix group here makes sense to me.

[mmartin798]

As I was making a delightful grilled turkey, ham and cheese for my wife, I kept thinking about this and some other odd thoughts crept in. We have to assume that the Back-up Prime was in the event of a catastrophic failure at Prime. Based on that assumption, it is likely that Project Planners with intimate knowledge of the restoration plan would be there. Then there is that problem with the Counsel of Tomorrow and their families. People that sacrificed so much for the Project, we cannot assume they would be left out to die.

So based on those assumptions, Back-up Prime might be the base where the Counsel was to sleep out the war with the planners with two objectives. Wake up when restoration is well underway to the cheering of a grateful nation or to try and patch together some kind of restoration given the first plan failed for some reason by working with what is left.

This still has a few gaping holes. If this were the case, then Prime can wake up Back-up Prime anytime with the appropriate code. But how does it wake up in the event of a failure Was it suppose to just automatically wake them up 20 years later assuming a problem was severe enough to not allow Prime to wake them If so, what happen to that clock Was it a second disaster or sabotage

But to Sgt's questions, I see the Back-up Prime as smaller and designed to coordinate pieces rather than be a supply and support base. Prime Base was meant to monitor and record events and then to gather intel and activate bases. The Back-up had no one awake to monitor, so they are relying on either the data sent to them by Prime or whatever they can gather for themselves. If we assume that it is the Counsel and their families, there would likely be a large(ish) MARS contingent for protection or insurgency to try and free up otherwise isolated or harassed teams.

[ArmySGT.]

I think in order to answer that question you would need to define what other function PB2 would fill with PB1 operational. For example, the XO of a ship takes over if the CO is incapacitated, but if the CO is fine then the XO still has a host of responsibilities. So what does PB2 do

If you/we/canon doesn't have a solid answer, then I would suggest that PB2 is probably just a slightly beefed-up regional command base. Take a normal RCB and give it a bit better comms and planning staff, but not much - you would have to assume that resources could be better spent elsewhere.

I would think that PB2 would still remain separate from a Regional base. Though I do a agree it should have something to do. Probably the coordination of satellite comms and such, possibly even the ability to launch Morrowsat 2. I dont think either PB1 or PB2 should have been designed or utilized as someplace with a lot of people coming and going. Probably does have a great number of planning staffers who with a functional PB1 would concentrate on overseas, Caribbean, or South American coordination and recovery efforts. Things like ethanol production, gas or oil drill rigs, food production in Argentina and Brazil while North America is still plagued by fallout.

I would assume opposite coast but mainland. You have regional command bases already, if you need an HQ off CONUS you probably don't have a Project to command any more.

I was think in the Appalachia.. a former mine such as coal or bauxite With the same cover story. Played out with millions in fines and a huge environmental cleanup effort that disguises all the material and building.

Dont agree that an OCONUS command means a failed effort. Continental Commands coordinate all the big stuff for operations on the other side of the planet. CentCom is in Florida, South Com is in florida, and PacCom is on Oahu. Those are managing Corps and Division assets or Fleet assets on the other side of the world by sat com and phone traffic through undersea cable. Morrowsat and would expect a post war launch of companion satellites on solid rocket boosters that can sit around for ages to be carried out.

Almost certainly not.

Actually I would Regional bases and Supply bases dont need non combatants under foot and a base that isnt open to the general public is probably better. Less chance of biowarfare agents slipping in.

Than what PB1 Absolutely not. But probably more than anyone else. Communications is probably the most vital requirement of command.

Actually if it is in the Eastern United States I would expect it to have more commo. Plugged into hardwire phone lines, cell tower networks, and data bearing fiber optics. Just by virtue of location and the density of such networks. I wouldnt expect it to have fixed wing assets and only modest rotary craft support. This might even be the location of Morrow Rail assets. The density of rail networks and smaller networks of independent rail belonging to corporations makes this possible even in Appalachia.

While PB1 probably would have seen some advantage in having so much collocated, spreading the rest out seems to make more sense. That is, the total risk to the Project is probably minimized by having PB2 be just a planning and coordination center, with as little else as possible.

I would think that the majority of functioning production facilities exist in Regional Bases, like you said to spread them about. However, I would also expect each Prime to be able to produce parts for a Region that may be overburdened or to make one offs and specialty equipment for unforeseen needs.

I suppose it could be an outdated facility, but if so it would be likely stripped down and largely empty.

Why Morrow doesnt appear to be the sort to do that. Legacy caches for example.

Yes, it is compromised. One way or the other, the story of TMP requires that all national command elements are out of the way. If PB2 existed, it was either destroyed or kept from waking.

I agree, it is compromised or the story doesnt work. Plausible reasons and the manner of this is important to the story. If PB2 is asleep with the wake call or found, gutted and burnt each make for a different dramatic story.

BTW, it is always worthwhile to remember that the creators (and continuers) of this game took a lot of liberties with "good sense planning" to create the gaming environment they desired. There are times when "this doesn't make sense" is the correct thing to say, and your choices are either to go off-canon or ignore the problem.

I hate the Pheonix team concept and dont use them. I go with a Senior Command staff in cryosleep with additional direct Recon personnel attached.

I cannot see why it would.

Common, give it a whirl. Huge star wars lasers to kill satellites was an 80s thing. Robots Artificial intelligence Cloning

Assuming that it is a beefed-up regional command base, I would say it would have the best crew available for those bases, with a carefully set of skills that would allow them to rebuild PB1's most important functions on the skeletal framework of PB2. I would add a 3-9 man Phoenix contingent as well - it always bugged me that Phoenix would be in one location, those guys would have known how ridiculous a risk that was, having at least one other Phoenix group here makes sense to me.

Me I say a complete Senior Command staff in cryosleep with a dedicated attached Recon element. Probably a MARS element that can be moved quickly to a hot spot to assist. HAAM suits with a parachute,

[cosmicfish]

I would think that PB2 would still remain separate from a Regional base. Though I do a agree it should have something to do. Probably the coordination of satellite comms and such, possibly even the ability to launch Morrowsat 2. I don't think either PB1 or PB2 should have been designed or utilized as someplace with a lot of people coming and going. Probably does have a great number of planning staffers who with a functional PB1 would concentrate on overseas, Caribbean, or South American coordination and recovery efforts. Things like ethanol production, gas or oil drill rigs, food production in Argentina and Brazil while North America is still plagued by fallout.

The trick is that you need to find some important-while-PB1-exists task that requires the same quantity and kind of people as PB2. Satellite comms seems like a handful of people too small and specialized for PB2, likewise fuel or food production. These are general command staff, they need something general to command.

Don't agree that an OCONUS command means a failed effort. Continental Commands coordinate all the big stuff for operations on the other side of the planet. CentCom is in Florida, South Com is in florida, and PacCom is on Oahu. Those are managing Corps and Division assets or Fleet assets on the other side of the world by sat com and phone traffic through undersea cable. Morrowsat and would expect a post – war launch of companion satellites on solid rocket boosters that can sit around for ages to be carried out.

That makes a lot of assumptions that are fine for a contemporary world power but highly risky for a post-apocalyptic recovery effort. You can't count on sat comms or undersea cables, heck you might not even have more than a modicum of water or air transport. Putting PB2 off the mainland means depending on a lot of other things going right just to maintain a connection.

And again, if you are expecting so much of the mainland to be hit that you cannot risk putting PB2 there, how much of the Project can you expect to be left

Actually I would...... Regional bases and Supply bases don't need non combatants under foot and a base that isn't open to the general public is probably better. Less chance of biowarfare agents slipping in.

I agree that noncombatants aren't needed, there really isn't a great reason to have them there in PB1, so I am not sure why you are saying "actually I would". It is the same problem Star Trek: TNG had, adding noncombatants adds drama but doesn't make sense.

Actually if it is in the Eastern United States I would expect it to have more commo. Plugged into hardwire phone lines, cell tower networks, and data bearing fiber optics. Just by virtue of location and the density of such networks. I wouldn't expect it to have fixed wing assets and only modest rotary craft support. This might even be the location of Morrow Rail assets. The density of rail networks and smaller networks of independent rail belonging to corporations makes this possible even in Appalachia.

Hard connections are a terrible idea, easy to track, hard to hide - I'm an electrical engineer, and the more connections you have to grid the more screens you are going to pop up on.

As to rail, you cannot expect something like rail lines to go more than a few miles without a break. As far as the TMP is concerned, the rail lines should be a disaster to be reclaimed later.

I would think that the majority of functioning production facilities exist in Regional Bases, like you said to spread them about. However, I would also expect each Prime to be able to produce parts for a Region that may be overburdened or to make one offs and specialty equipment for unforeseen needs.

Why There is nothing about command and control that requires production facilities. A national manufacturing facility could and should be a separate facility to minimize exposure and risk. The only reason for including anything with PB is to better communicate end-user requirements to research needs, and a good comms pipeline handles that pretty well.

Why Morrow doesn't appear to be the sort to do that. Legacy caches for example.

Because the requirements of a backup are different than the requirements of the principal. A prototype or outdated PB facility would have a lot that is not desirable in a backup unless you actually need all those resources in one place with PB1 still up and running. If this is the idea behind PB1 then I would expect them to mothball large parts of the facility and install a skeleton crew with some important but secondary command or control (only!) function for while PB1 is operational. Remember that PB2 need high quality staff, you want a job for them to do that is worthy of their skills, but you don't want a duplicate command facility needlessly eating up your resources.

Common, give it a whirl. Huge star wars lasers to kill satellites was an 80's thing. Robots Artificial intelligence Cloning

Sure, but why at PB2 What advantage is gained by having them with PB2 where one nuke could take out both

Me I say a complete Senior Command staff in cryosleep with a dedicated attached Recon element. Probably a MARS element that can be moved quickly to a hot spot to assist. HAAM suits with a parachute,

And what is their job with PB1 functioning Again, these are high-value staff, you can't afford to have them napping, no matter what you want them working. There really isn't a need for 2 PB's at the same time.

[nuke11]

First I think you would want to come up with a different name for the base.

Antonyms for prime

base
bottom
nadir
worst
conclusion
downfall
end

Most of these are really no good for a secondary command base name, but I kind of like "Nadir Base"

[RandyT0001]

Okay everyone is asleep but how many personnel does PB2 have

PB2 has about 300 personnel.

Is PB2 the same scale as PB1 or larger, or smaller

PB2 is physically smaller.

Where geographically

The facility is buried under a dam and reservoir built at coordinates 34.40917o, -88.34093o. Morrow Industries was one of the contractors for the Tennessee-Tombigbee Waterway and the equipment yard was located in the Mud Creek basin off John Rankin Highway (34.38795o, -88.36900o). This provided a cover story for building PB2. After the waterway was completed the equipment yard was abandoned.

Does PB2 also have a large contingent of non combatants

If non-combatants means children of the facility staff then there are about 30 non-combatants.

More commo

An equal amount of communications equipment.

More production facilities

Facilities to produce unidrug were incorporated on site.

More supplies

About half of the supplies of material (ammo, weapons, spare vehicle parts, etc.) listed for PB1.

Or is it the prototype that was moved to backup status with PB1 online

It was built as a designed back up to PB1 but with a supplemental purpose if PB1 survived.

Is it compromised Is it knocked offline by Soviets or suspicious elements of the U.S. forces striking out in all directions

The base had it own radiation monitoring systems tied into computers. Unlike PB1 there were no active personnel during the attack. PB2 was supposed to be activated automatically six years after the war if not cancelled by a signal from an active PB1. That signal was never sent so PB2 should have been activated a year after PB1 but it did not. The computer control room which housed the activation computer for PB2 personnel and the activation codes for other teams was flooded destroying the computer system. The rest of the base is intact and the teams are still there. As long as the dam provides the necessary electrical power to keep the cyro units active the team will sleep for millennium.

Does it have any capabilities that PB1 did not offensive, defensive, or purely reconstruction

Besides being the back up to PB1, PB2 was given its own purpose to coordinate the reconstruction of infrastructure east of the Mississippi River. PB2 has several engineering units assigned to it that were tasked with repairing and rebuilding the electrical generation capacity of the hydroelectric dams across the United States, repair and rebuilding the rail system to facilitate the distribution of material and personnel and the repair and rebuilding of the interior waterways to facilitate the distribution of personnel and material.

What kind of personnel were emplaced there

About one third of the personnel would shift focus to reviving the MP teams if PB1 was incapacitated. If PB1 survived the base would begin reviving its assigned teams and begin its assigned task. The remaining two hundred personnel formed the cadre of five forty man prime engineering teams. Two of these teams with supplemental workers could oversee the rebuilding of dams on rivers, remove, repair, replace and re-install turbines and generators at dams and other electrical generation plants. Two of these teams were specialists in railways and the last team was composed of specialists that could repair inland ports and waterways. Slightly less than half of these teams personnel were former US Army Corps of Engineers specialists. These teams have remote facilities where their extensive equipment was stored.

How's that

[nuke11]

I'm inclined to place a backup base somewhere in the US North East. To the west of Lake Champlain in Vermont. The base would be 95% automated with a minimal complement of base personal frozen.

One of the biggest problems to having a backup base is the cost involved to creating all of these bases around the country, let alone 1 large primary base and possibly a smaller secondary base.

The more you build, the harder it becomes to keep the project hidden. The costs alone to get everything completed before 1989, without fusion technology would bankrupt a small country, let along the leading industrialists of the day. Post fusion that is another large out poring of cash to get the technology produced and then if so inclined to retrofit all of the structures previously built.

[RandyT0001]

I'm inclined to place a backup base somewhere in the US North East. To the west of Lake Champlain in Vermont. The base would be 95% automated with a minimal complement of base personal frozen.

One of the biggest problems to having a backup base is the cost involved to creating all of these bases around the country, let alone 1 large primary base and possibly a smaller secondary base.

The more you build, the harder it becomes to keep the project hidden. The costs alone to get everything completed before 1989, without fusion technology would bankrupt a small country, let along the leading industrialists of the day. Post fusion that is another large out poring of cash to get the technology produced and then if so inclined to retrofit all of the structures previously built.

IMO
Money really is not an issue. With all of the finance options of stocks, bonds, loans, derivatives, etc. available to multinational corporations and conglomerates with the ability to file bankruptcy to dismiss the accrued debts and restart anew under a different name without consequence the project is easily funded. Besides if the corporations finance the debt repayment dates beyond the day the war starts there is no bank nor court to face in default.

Using out of state contractors and imported labor force building the structures in stages is feasible. Dummy corporation hires a contractor who imports a labor force to lay the foundation then files bankruptcy. Three months later a new company buys the site and hires a contractor with out of state labor force and builds the structure. After completion the company files bankruptcy. Repeat the process until the site is completed. No contractor nor labor force sees the entire structure's construction. The final fitting out is done by a Morrow Industries subsidiary.

[cosmicfish]

The computer control room which housed the activation computer for PB2 personnel and the activation codes for other teams was flooded destroying the computer system. The rest of the base is intact and the teams are still there. As long as the dam provides the necessary electrical power to keep the cyro units active the team will sleep for millennium.

First, why take the massive risk of putting a sleeping facility completely under water The advantages in shielding and stealth are pointless when you are all but guaranteed to have some degree of leaking and therefore some degree of destruction

Second, having taken that risk, how bad was the risk mitigation that the computers were at the low point collecting water And why were there not any automatic systems registering the leak and activating the staff under emergency protocols

This kind of failure, in engineering design and construction, paints the designers as incompetent. I personally prefer to use enemy action or bad luck (errant missile, earthquake, that sort of thing) to take out necessary facilities.

[RandyT0001]

First, why take the massive risk of putting a sleeping facility completely under water The advantages in shielding and stealth are pointless when you are all but guaranteed to have some degree of leaking and therefore some degree of destruction

Plot requirements.

Second, having taken that risk, how bad was the risk mitigation that the computers were at the low point collecting water And why were there not any automatic systems registering the leak and activating the staff under emergency protocols

Literary license.

This kind of failure, in engineering design and construction, paints the designers as incompetent. I personally prefer to use enemy action or bad luck (errant missile, earthquake, that sort of thing) to take out necessary facilities.

Errant missile, earthquake How clich.

Ok, ok. How about this.
The base was built under a partially completed dam. The dam serves at the outlet for the vehicles. The computer room is on the same level as the rest of the underground base. An asteroid...........no, that's been used already. An agent of Krell infiltrated the base, set her own cyro tube to wake her a month after the bombs fell and she killed the other members of the base only to find out that the commander must key in a code to open the exits. She suffocated.

Ok. Too far fetched.

Lightning struck the radio tower, overloading out the commo equipment and the command computer. 95% of the personnel died also but not the commander. Once the fusion power plant runs out of fuel, about 150 to 200 years after the war the emergency protocols circulate fresh air and wake the remaining personnel.

[cosmicfish]

Plot requirements. Literary license.

AKA lazy writing. Seriously, is there a reason why you would want to depict the planners as incompetent And if not, why do it

Errant missile, earthquake How clich.

Nukes not hitting where the Project expected should be the single biggest cause of lost facilities, and I would think earthquakes and other natural (or nuke-triggered) disasters would be up there too. Clich is better than lazy writing.

Lightning struck the radio tower, overloading out the commo equipment and the command computer. 95% of the personnel died also but not the commander. Once the fusion power plant runs out of fuel, about 150 to 200 years after the war the emergency protocols circulate fresh air and wake the remaining personnel.

Radio towers are pretty well lightning-proofed already, it's pretty basic. And I am not sure why that would kill anyone, much less 95%.

Is there a reason PB2/Second Base needs to have survived at all I mean, I suppose this whole discussion is a little academic if there is no chance to bring it into play, but is there a reason to create some convoluted reason why the base is intact but still sleeping The simplest reason PB2 never took over would be because like a number of Morrow facilities it simply got hit in the first exchange.

[RandyT0001]

Is there a reason PB2/Second Base needs to have survived at all I mean, I suppose this whole discussion is a little academic if there is no chance to bring it into play, but is there a reason to create some convoluted reason why the base is intact but still sleeping

In your game if there is a chance that PB2 survived and might come into play then it seems that you have to create a reason why PB2 did not fulfill it's job by taking over the command of MP after PB1 was incapacitated. As you have alluded to, it has to be a well thought out and logical reason. I think that somebody on the forum once suggested that the funds, labor and material that was meant to construct PB2 was diverted by the Rich Five to build their base instead without Morrow ever discovering the truth.

I really have not decided whether PB2 survived or not for my campaign.

The simplest reason PB2 never took over would be because like a number of Morrow facilities it simply got hit in the first exchange.

Yes, that's the simplest and easiest way out. My guess is that ArmySgt wanted a discussion of other possibilities and options, i.e. a brainstorming session. (Yes, my brain contributes just a teaspoon of rainwater to the storm. )

[cosmicfish]

I think that somebody on the forum once suggested that the funds, labor and material that was meant to construct PB2 was diverted by the Rich Five to build their base instead without Morrow ever discovering the truth.

How do you conceal that level of divergence At some point, someone had to notice that they literally did not have what was required for the build! Siphoning off resources should produce a leaner Project, but not a ridiculous one.

And if you want the Rich Five behind it, perhaps they just looted the facility! Starnaman introduced a group who had found and looted a bolthole, perhaps the Five knew the location of PB2 and decided that it was the perfect source of last-minute resources they needed. As the bombs fell, a small crew with Morrow access codes entered the base, took certain equipment they needed but had not yet been able to acquire (comms, computers, etc.), and abandoned it. Perhaps some of the staff are still there, supported by the reactor that was too difficult to remove, perhaps they were all killed.

Heck, perhaps the facility was deliberately sabotaged by the Five to hamstring the Project and ensure their supremacy, with the plans to destroy PB rendered unnecessary by Krell's actions.

Yes, that's the simplest and easiest way out. My guess is that ArmySgt wanted a discussion of other possibilities and options, i.e. a brainstorming session. (Yes, my brain contributes just a teaspoon of rainwater to the storm. )

Sometimes the simplest is the best. If you need a particular effect or if it is an important plot point, then go more convoluted. But without that, the simple answers solve the problem. If I need to kill someone, I'm pretty much going to use a gun or a knife, if I need to kill someone and make it look like food poisoning or suicide or natural causes then I would go a different route, but only under such circumstances.

So is there a particular effect that is desired Is the goal to have the staff dead (or asleep) but the facility intact Or the other way around, have the staff alive but their facility wrecked Each of those has a different set of reasonable causes.