Snake Eaters-1st Cavalry

[tsofian]

You're forgetting an important details of that scenario.

The SEALs were held up by Big Navy. Launched late and from further out than was supposed to happen. The SEALs had to go significantly further in a zodiac with an outboard motor...The SEALs arrived hours late...not at high tide and hours before dawn, but low tide and after sunrise....They attempted to complete their mission slogging across groin deep mud flats. Unfortunately, a Panamian soldier was more on the ball than usual and the team was spotted. The rest is history.

I'm not forgetting it. I know very well that Murphy was a grunt. It's not a perfect world and THINGS GO WRONG.

http://www.murphys-laws.com/murphy/murphy-war.html

[ArmySGT.]

I'm not forgetting it. I know very well that Murphy was a grunt. It's not a perfect world and THINGS GO WRONG.

http://www.murphys-laws.com/murphy/murphy-war.html

So you knowing that the SEALs were launched hours late and miles further out by a Navy Captain more interested in himself and a ship than the lives of the SEALs. A situation making them arrive after sunrise and low tide to ross hundreds of yards of mud flats..... You fault the SEALs

What military lets you choose to continue your mission or not Was there a vote somewhere that the SEALs weren't told about

Also when did SEALs merge with the U.S. Army Special Forces A different branch with it's own selection, training, and missions.

[tsofian]

So you knowing that the SEALs were launched hours late and miles further out by a Navy Captain more interested in himself and a ship than the lives of the SEALs. A situation making them arrive after sunrise and low tide to ross hundreds of yards of mud flats..... You fault the SEALs

What military lets you choose to continue your mission or not Was there a vote somewhere that the SEALs weren't told about

Also when did SEALs merge with the U.S. Army Speial Fores A different branch with it's own selection, training, and missions.

I don't fault the SEALs, I am just stating what seems obvious to me, THINGS GO WRONG. SoF teams can catch bullets just like everyone else.

Also you brought up SEAL Team Six and Delta Force so you initially made the connection between SoF units of various services. I fully understand the two branches are different and do different things with different things but the basic point remains THINGS GO WRONG. On any given day an SoF team can get in a world of hurt just like normal human beings, although perhaps not as often and perhaps they will be able to extricate themselves more effectively.

[ArmySGT.]

I don't fault the SEALs, I am just stating what seems obvious to me, THINGS GO WRONG. SoF teams can catch bullets just like everyone else.

Also you brought up SEAL Team Six and Delta Force so you initially made the connection between SoF units of various services. I fully understand the two branches are different and do different things with different things but the basic point remains THINGS GO WRONG. On any given day an SoF team can get in a world of hurt just like normal human beings, although perhaps not as often and perhaps they will be able to extricate themselves more effectively.

True. However, your reply seems to blame the SEALs (or any SOF) for judgement, training, and knowledge. I don't get it, though I have had the opportunity to work with 1st SFG and 5th SFG when stationed at Ft Lewis and Ft Campbell.

[cosmicfish]

I don't fault the SEALs, I am just stating what seems obvious to me, THINGS GO WRONG. SoF teams can catch bullets just like everyone else.

I am not sure where this disagreement is coming from, nor why it has gone on so long.

SOF are selected from the best of the military and then given additional training, equipment, and other resources. The expectation is (and should be!) that they will outperform equivalently sized units and achieve parity against larger units (for some values of "larger"), often with improved performance for a particular mission profile. That they can and do fail should not be an issue - the best at ANYTHING still have failure rates, but it should be lower than conventional forces under similar circumstances. The traditional argument against SOF is that their improved performance does not justify the resources expended on them and the corresponding drain on conventional forces.

Your original question was how a special forces A-team would handle a Morrow team, and I think the there are several answers for the actions they might take. As for their odds of success, it depends on what you consider to be regular TMP training compared to SF.

In the case of Green Berets, they have gone through about a year of training above and beyond their prior military training (which definitely includes basic, usually includes infantry, and often includes Ranger training) just to qualify and receive extensive additional training both as individuals and as a unit. While a significant portion of this training addresses non-combat issues, a great deal of it does address combat. An A-Team may have a few new members but on average has significant experience, and it may be argued that a Snake Eater team would be selected to minimize or eliminate rookies.

For the Project, the implication has always been that members receive a relative minimum of combat training. Their primary mission is reconstruction, combat is at best secondary if not tertiary, and while canon lacks any real specifics it certainly looks as if their training is closer to Army Basic than any other military training. While any PD may decide to give the Teams more training, that assumption should be stated if you want others to consider it.

As to the idea of veterans in the Project Team coming from SOF, it would seem likely that any such veterans would be a substantial minority (just as they are in the military) and that their unusual capabilities would be reserved at some higher level for special purposes (just as in the military). A run-of-the-mill MARS team would be lucky to have a couple of guys who are Ranger-qualified, even a single SF vet would be truly remarkable. Even if we consider the absurd extreme where 75% of the team are not only veterans but actually SOF veterans, and where 50-75% of those were combat vets, then we still have maybe 4-6 Green Berets against an A-Team twice the size that has already had the chance to get acclimated.

And again, the idea that an A-Team would tear through a Morrow Team is not only sensible, but canon. The Ruins of Chicago already addressed this possibility, and made it clear that if the Team wanted to live they needed to tread lightly and use diplomacy, not bullets. While I disagree with many parts of canon, I see no reason to disagree with this.

[Project_Sardonicus]

But isn't the question not so much who would in a fight Morrow v SF (it's SF as has been said it's Cannon even Prime Base made clear that the Project had a special use for its most special forces).

But what would the reaction be from SF troops encountering a team They weren't sent to kill these dangerous saboteurs. But rather, there's some funny sorts freezing themselves with guns and getting organised. Go see what they're up to.

An SF team attacking a Project team would be like a naturalist making an omelette out of rare Eagle eggs.

In terms of who'd follow the orders if the 1st Cav and SF met up. Here's an interesting question supposing someone like the Frozen Chosen had frozen a senior member of the government at designated survivor level of authority,

What happens when he gets on the radio and starts summoning up all the surviving US military to follow their commander in chief
Loyalty to the chain of command gets pretty close to the bone.

[tsofian]

For the Project, the implication has always been that members receive a relative minimum of combat training. Their primary mission is reconstruction, combat is at best secondary if not tertiary, and while canon lacks any real specifics it certainly looks as if their training is closer to Army Basic than any other military training. While any PD may decide to give the Teams more training, that assumption should be stated if you want others to consider it.

As to the idea of veterans in the Project Team coming from SOF, it would seem likely that any such veterans would be a substantial minority (just as they are in the military) and that their unusual capabilities would be reserved at some higher level for special purposes (just as in the military). A run-of-the-mill MARS team would be lucky to have a couple of guys who are Ranger-qualified, even a single SF vet would be truly remarkable. Even if we consider the absurd extreme where 75% of the team are not only veterans but actually SOF veterans, and where 50-75% of those were combat vets, then we still have maybe 4-6 Green Berets against an A-Team twice the size that has already had the chance to get acclimated.

And again, the idea that an A-Team would tear through a Morrow Team is not only sensible, but canon. The Ruins of Chicago already addressed this possibility, and made it clear that if the Team wanted to live they needed to tread lightly and use diplomacy, not bullets. While I disagree with many parts of canon, I see no reason to disagree with this.

I disagree with a lot of this. First to say that MARS teams receive a relative minimum of combat training seems to be contraindicated by the canon description, their equipment load outs and their Acronym. They are a combat asset. They should be recruited from the best available resources and given as much additional training as possible. Otherwise all the fancy tools they get up to and including the MARS 1 are just a waste of valuable resources. I don't think I need to specifically state this because it is stated in canon

"The personnel of the Project are well trained, but they are not all combat verterans..." (This indicates that a portion of them were)

3rd edition Introduction

"The warriors of the Morrow Project. MARS stands for Mobile Assault, Rescue and Strike forces. The members of these teams are equipped with heavy weapons and the knowledge of how to use them"

"Many of the members of Mars Teams are veterans"

3rd edition page 11

I'm not certain how much more clearly this canon statement can be. It doesn't specifically say that the "veterans" were SF or other Sof troops but since the Project sought out the most capable individuals they could find it stands to reason that they would have looked for the best "warriors" they could find.

You state that canon says SF vs MP will lead to MP being handed their ass. Canon is only so good. It gave us things like the MARS 1 and the even more loathed Science Rover. It also has blue undead. The original designers saddled the project with almost a dozen calibers of ammunition and gave Recon teams vehicles that aren't amphibious, the design team was not infallible. Yes I quote canon above and like everyone else will pick and choose what parts of it I use and what parts I don't.

That being said is it, the players need to be extremely careful about getting into any combat. Getting shot in the original rules was likely to kill a character. Depending upon how a PD runs the game (and again YMMV) civilization can't really be rebuilt by the gun alone. I haven't looked at Ruins of Chicago in a long time, but even if the MP should, through some huge fluke, beat the SF guys can they succeed in their mission

[.45cultist]

I disagree with a lot of this. First to say that MARS teams receive a relative minimum of combat training seems to be contraindicated by the canon description, their equipment load outs and their Acronym. They are a combat asset. They should be recruited from the best available resources and given as much additional training as possible. Otherwise all the fancy tools they get up to and including the MARS 1 are just a waste of valuable resources. I don't think I need to specifically state this because it is stated in canon

"The personnel of the Project are well trained, but they are not all combat verterans..." (This indicates that a portion of them were)

3rd edition Introduction

"The warriors of the Morrow Project. MARS stands for Mobile Assault, Rescue and Strike forces. The members of these teams are equipped with heavy weapons and the knowledge of how to use them"

"Many of the members of Mars Teams are veterans"

3rd edition page 11

I'm not certain how much more clearly this canon statement can be. It doesn't specifically say that the "veterans" were SF or other Sof troops but since the Project sought out the most capable individuals they could find it stands to reason that they would have looked for the best "warriors" they could find.

You state that canon says SF vs MP will lead to MP being handed their ass. Canon is only so good. It gave us things like the MARS 1 and the even more loathed Science Rover. It also has blue undead. The original designers saddled the project with almost a dozen calibers of ammunition and gave Recon teams vehicles that aren't amphibious, the design team was not infallible. Yes I quote canon above and like everyone else will pick and choose what parts of it I use and what parts I don't.

That being said is it, the players need to be extremely careful about getting into any combat. Getting shot in the original rules was likely to kill a character. Depending upon how a PD runs the game (and again YMMV) civilization can't really be rebuilt by the gun alone. I haven't looked at Ruins of Chicago in a long time, but even if the MP should, through some huge fluke, beat the SF guys can they succeed in their mission

The SOF guys were diverted to the Phoenix Team. Mars is supposed to be SWAT in nature with a lot more options than LEOs. The minimum skill levels for snake eaters were the high end for project personnel. The team would get creamed whether it was a snake eater or a top tier regular grunt- top 1% is top 1%. And the 30 to 40 to 1 odds doesn't mean the SF guys go unscathed.

[ArmySGT.]

I disagree with a lot of this. First to say that MARS teams receive a relative minimum of combat training seems to be contraindicated by the canon description, their equipment load outs and their Acronym. They are a combat asset. They should be recruited from the best available resources and given as much additional training as possible. Otherwise all the fancy tools they get up to and including the MARS 1 are just a waste of valuable resources. I don't think I need to specifically state this because it is stated in canon

"The personnel of the Project are well trained, but they are not all combat verterans..." (This indicates that a portion of them were)

3rd edition Introduction

"The warriors of the Morrow Project. MARS stands for Mobile Assault, Rescue and Strike forces. The members of these teams are equipped with heavy weapons and the knowledge of how to use them"

"Many of the members of Mars Teams are veterans"

3rd edition page 11

I'm not certain how much more clearly this canon statement can be. It doesn't specifically say that the "veterans" were SF or other Sof troops but since the Project sought out the most capable individuals they could find it stands to reason that they would have looked for the best "warriors" they could find.

You state that canon says SF vs MP will lead to MP being handed their ass. Canon is only so good. It gave us things like the MARS 1 and the even more loathed Science Rover. It also has blue undead. The original designers saddled the project with almost a dozen calibers of ammunition and gave Recon teams vehicles that aren't amphibious, the design team was not infallible. Yes I quote canon above and like everyone else will pick and choose what parts of it I use and what parts I don't.

That being said is it, the players need to be extremely careful about getting into any combat. Getting shot in the original rules was likely to kill a character. Depending upon how a PD runs the game (and again YMMV) civilization can't really be rebuilt by the gun alone. I haven't looked at Ruins of Chicago in a long time, but even if the MP should, through some huge fluke, beat the SF guys can they succeed in their mission

The Infantryman that finishes his three years in Germany....a veteran.

The Generals driver at the Pentagon is a, you guessed it, a veteran.

The cook, mail clerk, truck driver, JAG clerk....... yup.....with Honorable disharge.....veterans.

Veteran doesn't mean you attended and excelled at all combat related military schools.

Regular Army Tankers, Artillerists, Infantry, cavalry Scouts, and more are the
combat veterans. They for the most part have Basic, AIT, and maybe one or two military schools.


Many of the "Veterans" in MARS are police officers, EMTs, and Fire fighters..... the R in MARS is rescue after all.

[cosmicfish]

I disagree with a lot of this. First to say that MARS teams receive a relative minimum of combat training seems to be contraindicated by the canon description, their equipment load outs and their Acronym. They are a combat asset. They should be recruited from the best available resources and given as much additional training as possible. Otherwise all the fancy tools they get up to and including the MARS 1 are just a waste of valuable resources. I don't think I need to specifically state this because it is stated in canon

"The personnel of the Project are well trained, but they are not all combat verterans..." (This indicates that a portion of them were)

3rd edition Introduction

"The warriors of the Morrow Project. MARS stands for Mobile Assault, Rescue and Strike forces. The members of these teams are equipped with heavy weapons and the knowledge of how to use them"

"Many of the members of Mars Teams are veterans"

3rd edition page 11

I'm not certain how much more clearly this canon statement can be. It doesn't specifically say that the "veterans" were SF or other Sof troops but since the Project sought out the most capable individuals they could find it stands to reason that they would have looked for the best "warriors" they could find.

You state that canon says SF vs MP will lead to MP being handed their ass. Canon is only so good. It gave us things like the MARS 1 and the even more loathed Science Rover. It also has blue undead. The original designers saddled the project with almost a dozen calibers of ammunition and gave Recon teams vehicles that aren't amphibious, the design team was not infallible. Yes I quote canon above and like everyone else will pick and choose what parts of it I use and what parts I don't.

That being said is it, the players need to be extremely careful about getting into any combat. Getting shot in the original rules was likely to kill a character. Depending upon how a PD runs the game (and again YMMV) civilization can't really be rebuilt by the gun alone. I haven't looked at Ruins of Chicago in a long time, but even if the MP should, through some huge fluke, beat the SF guys can they succeed in their mission

To add to what others have already noted:

MARS describes the mission profile of an entire branch, it does not imply that every MARS team is capable of every single possible MARS mission.

The statements given in canon are broadly interpretable. "Assault" and "Strike" are roles regularly assigned to line infantry, "Rescue" is, as has been noted, a SWAT role. The fact that there are top-tier military units performing these roles as well does not mean that the Project is at that level. "Well trained" does not indicate for which parts of their mission this applies, nor does it give us any comparison to know how "well" they really ARE trained. I don't have the book with me this weekend, but if I recall correctly the base combat skill numbers for MARS are only about twice as good as the abysmal scores acceptable for Science teams - that doesn't seem that "well".

You focus on what the Project teams SHOULD be, but that is an unrealistic standard. Every US infantryman SHOULD be as proficient as a Delta commando, but realistically we can only get so many men of that caliber and can only spend so much time and money on their training... just like the Project. The Project has very strict recruiting standards (psych profile, willingness/ability to abandon all family and friends, the willingness to abandon the US to destruction and rebuild something presumably at least a little different in its place, etc) and even if they hit up every SOF operator they would probably only get a small number of takers, so I suspect that line MARS teams will probably not have anything more elite than line infantry.

You also note (correctly) that even in MARS units not everyone is a veteran - whatever the standard may be, the Project must be able to train civilians up from scratch to that standard or else send teams into the field with weak sisters. I don't think the latter generally works and the former requires that the Project have a military training organization that (a) hits a particular standard (SOF for you, perhaps AIT or so for me) and (b) can sustain it without tipping anyone off for the entire recruiting phase of the Project. The latter alone is daunting even for the AIT level, I am not sure how the Project could do it for SF.

FWIW, I always assumed a tiered system (as with everything in my Project-Region-District-Group scheme) where MARS units down at the Group level would be tasked with dealing with small scale disturbances - bandits, mostly. Larger or more difficult opponents would involve retreat or holding actions while waiting for the progressively better recruited/trained teams assigned at the higher levels to show up. So if Phoenix represents the top capability of SOF in the Project, then perhaps the Regional commands have a few teams with SEALS and Green Berets and the District teams have some Rangers, EOD techs, and Force Recon Marines. But you cannot maintain that skill level across the entirety of MARS.

And I (and I think others) have been assuming that the players in this scenario represented a low-level MARS team, not "the very best of the Project". The very best of the Project is Phoenix, and they (or some reasonable facsimile of them) should be able to outdo an SF team if they really wanted to - I suspect they too would prefer to work with them rather than against them.

One last thing to consider is that most of this discussion has focused on the classic war-game scenario - Red forces entering the board from the left while Blue forces are entering from the right, find the enemy and engage. The reality here is that the SF team is established, and if they are at all competent in their jobs it means that they know the lay of the land and have recruited and trained allied forces. The Project team would probably never see more than a couple of the Green Berets at a time, they would be facing larger numbers of "indigenous" troops with the soldiers in command/advisory roles. This just makes things worse for the team, despite their edge in equipment.

[.45cultist]

To add to what others have already noted:

MARS describes the mission profile of an entire branch, it does not imply that every MARS team is capable of every single possible MARS mission.

The statements given in canon are broadly interpretable. "Assault" and "Strike" are roles regularly assigned to line infantry, "Rescue" is, as has been noted, a SWAT role. The fact that there are top-tier military units performing these roles as well does not mean that the Project is at that level. "Well trained" does not indicate for which parts of their mission this applies, nor does it give us any comparison to know how "well" they really ARE trained. I don't have the book with me this weekend, but if I recall correctly the base combat skill numbers for MARS are only about twice as good as the abysmal scores acceptable for Science teams - that doesn't seem that "well".

You focus on what the Project teams SHOULD be, but that is an unrealistic standard. Every US infantryman SHOULD be as proficient as a Delta commando, but realistically we can only get so many men of that caliber and can only spend so much time and money on their training... just like the Project. The Project has very strict recruiting standards (psych profile, willingness/ability to abandon all family and friends, the willingness to abandon the US to destruction and rebuild something presumably at least a little different in its place, etc) and even if they hit up every SOF operator they would probably only get a small number of takers, so I suspect that line MARS teams will probably not have anything more elite than line infantry.

You also note (correctly) that even in MARS units not everyone is a veteran - whatever the standard may be, the Project must be able to train civilians up from scratch to that standard or else send teams into the field with weak sisters. I don't think the latter generally works and the former requires that the Project have a military training organization that (a) hits a particular standard (SOF for you, perhaps AIT or so for me) and (b) can sustain it without tipping anyone off for the entire recruiting phase of the Project. The latter alone is daunting even for the AIT level, I am not sure how the Project could do it for SF.

FWIW, I always assumed a tiered system (as with everything in my Project-Region-District-Group scheme) where MARS units down at the Group level would be tasked with dealing with small scale disturbances - bandits, mostly. Larger or more difficult opponents would involve retreat or holding actions while waiting for the progressively better recruited/trained teams assigned at the higher levels to show up. So if Phoenix represents the top capability of SOF in the Project, then perhaps the Regional commands have a few teams with SEALS and Green Berets and the District teams have some Rangers, EOD techs, and Force Recon Marines. But you cannot maintain that skill level across the entirety of MARS.

And I (and I think others) have been assuming that the players in this scenario represented a low-level MARS team, not "the very best of the Project". The very best of the Project is Phoenix, and they (or some reasonable facsimile of them) should be able to outdo an SF team if they really wanted to - I suspect they too would prefer to work with them rather than against them.

One last thing to consider is that most of this discussion has focused on the classic war-game scenario - Red forces entering the board from the left while Blue forces are entering from the right, find the enemy and engage. The reality here is that the SF team is established, and if they are at all competent in their jobs it means that they know the lay of the land and have recruited and trained allied forces. The Project team would probably never see more than a couple of the Green Berets at a time, they would be facing larger numbers of "indigenous" troops with the soldiers in command/advisory roles. This just makes things worse for the team, despite their edge in equipment.

The field manuals help here, most show partisans using SF taught skills. Also the manuals are good for cache contents, as they give tool and weapons, equipment packages.

[gamerguy]

Field manuals

[mmartin798]

These:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/

[gamerguy]

OK...

How about a few recommendations out of the list of many Thank you.

[mmartin798]

OK...



How about a few recommendations out of the list of many Thank you.

Probably these would be a place to start:

FM 7-0
FM 7-8
FM 7-10


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