The Project Issue #2 and Seed Caches

[mmartin798]

I do like seeing new material coming out for MP. Though in Issue #2 of The Project that just got released, I saw one thing that just seemed off and did the math as I am wont to do.

The article mentions a cache type for a community that is one Pelican case with 1250 packets of seeds. The seeds are chosen for the region, climate, etc and are enough to supply four 100 acre farms for four years. Looking at some agricultural data, the average amount of seed for an acre of land using direct seeding (planting directly in the soil versus starter bed and transplanting seedlings) is right around two pounds. The average density of seeds is about 30 pounds per cubic foot. That comes out to 200 pounds per farm per year or 3200 pounds of seeds, or about 107 cubic feet.

The largest Pelican case I can find is the Mobile Military MM08 Pallet-Ready case at 35.8 cubic feet (internal capacity). So three of these will do the job. It will still fit inside a large sewer vault as the article mentions, but to call it 1250 packets in a single case and imagining carrying the case, opening it and handing a farmer a few small packets to plant is not exactly the right image.

[cosmicfish]

RPG designers and writers almost never do all the research and almost uniformly hate to do the math.

[rcaf_777]

Try searching Seed Bank Kits like Heirloom Seed Bank Kit, they should give you an idea of how the kits should look

[ArmySGT.]

http://www.non-hybrid-seeds.com/survivalseedvault.html

[StainlessSteelCynic]

The image that ArmySGT. posted is very telling. That bucket supplies enough seed for a 2 acre plot. Just two acres. According to what else is on the website, that bucket holds 1.8lbs of seed but there are just over 55,000 seeds in that.
So using that as a basis for some really rough estimates, 100 acres would require 2,750,000 seeds so four x 100 acre farms would require 11,000,000 seeds.

Even without that crude info, I think most people would realize that the proposed Pelican case of 1250 seeds is would be hopelessly unable to supply one 100 acre farm for even one year let alone four.
So four farms for four years
The Project proposal isn't just overly optimistic, it's so ludicrous as to make you laugh. Or cry.

The website that ArmySGT. linked to makes for a much better Project proposal. One bucket of 55,000 seeds for two acres appears to be enough to feed one family with some surplus so to my mind, a Project seed cache would be say, twenty of these 2lb pails (holding 1.8lbs of seed) to give 40 acres of crop. All that for just 40lbs weight and it's not particularly bulky.

If all that crop is kept as seed then (again using rough & optimistic estimates), the next season you could potentially have 80 acres of crop.
Yes it's going to take some time and probably requires the people being helped to be councilled not to eat the crop but if the Players like the rebuilding aspect then that sort of time period is a good tie to the community they're trying to help.

[ArmySGT.]

Farm Pail

https://www.non-hybrid-seeds.com/sp/farm-pack.html

List

https://www.non-hybrid-seeds.com/fmp-var.html

Homestead Pail

https://www.non-hybrid-seeds.com/sp/homestead-pack.html

List

https://www.non-hybrid-seeds.com/hp-var.html

Livestock Pail

https://www.non-hybrid-seeds.com/sp/livestock-pack.html

[.45cultist]

So a few of those blue drums that can be used as rain barrel full of repackaged seeds should work.

[mmartin798]

The 55-gallon blue rain barrel might be the best form factor for the original intent of the cache. You need just shy of 15 of them to hold the required number of seeds. Spread that over 16 barrels, and you have one barrel per 100 acre farm year. That way, each barrel will have enough empty space for educational material, like planting and growing guides, preservation techniques and a cookbook with balanced nutritional plans for the plants grown.

[rcaf_777]

I go with the Pelican 1630 M.O.B. Case for the seeds and education material, and have 55-gallon blue barrel packed with a crop irrigation kit.

https://www.earlysgarden.com/components/com_mijoshop/opencart/image/cache/data/product/Garden/Drip%20Irrigation/drip_tape_garden_kit2-700x700.jpg

[Matt W]

I'm REALLY not comfortable with the idea that the Project could store sufficient seeds for several farms. Would it not be more plausible to have enough seeds for lots of vegetable gardens That way, the Project could provide a way for people to obtain the necessary micro-nutrients and vitamins

This might be an interesting possibility

http://www.carbon.org/catalog/pub/disasterkit.htm

[cosmicfish]

Does it really matter Barring some exceptional technique, the team should know when they wake up and discover the year that these seeds are no longer viable. I wouldn't waste too much time on an irrelevant set of crates that should be immediately abandoned.

[mmartin798]

Of course it matters. Seeds found in many places that have produced viable plants have been carbon dated as being more that 1000 years old a number of times. It all depends on storage conditions. At 150 years of well controlled storage you will have a lower rate of germination, maybe lower than 40%, but that can still be useful.

[mmartin798]

I'm REALLY not comfortable with the idea that the Project could store sufficient seeds for several farms. Would it not be more plausible to have enough seeds for lots of vegetable gardens That way, the Project could provide a way for people to obtain the necessary micro-nutrients and vitamins

This might be an interesting possibility

http://www.carbon.org/catalog/pub/disasterkit.htm

Is it the word farm that is the problem I am not talking about a monocropping mega farm. From the start I assumed a farm practicing conservation agricultural, which includes growing a variety of crops, rotating them, and other sustainable practices. This is why there are packets of many varieties of seeds in the cache rather than large sacks of a single crop.

[.45cultist]

And some references on permaculture, other sustainable farm techniques. Spare tool handles, for 5 years after there would be a lot of heads in garages and barns.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Wandering around the net looking for sites that relate to this topic, I found the following information from this site: - https://www.thespruce.com/how-many-v...garden-1403355

Quote: In oeHow To Grow More Vegetables, intensive gardening guru, John Jeavons, says youll need about 200 sq.ft. per person to grow enough vegetables and soft fruits for the growing season at intermediate yields. To grow all the food for one person's needs for the whole year requires, for most people, at least 4,000 square feet"though some diet designs are possible that can use a smaller area. :EndQuote

200 sq.ft per person or for those of us in metric, approximately 18.6 sq. metres.
For comparison purposes, 1 acre = 43,560 sq.ft.

So in regards to Morrow teams trying to help out with agriculture, a typical vegetable garden as we envisage it, would be a supplement to whatever other food gathering practices a settlement has. The idea of stocking seeds to help establish even 2 acres of crop will obviously need a substantial amount of seed (based on the figures for a 2 acre plot in the website that ArmySGT. linked to).

Rereading the cache description provided by mmartin798 I realize that I thought the cache held only 1250 seeds but it actually meant 1250 packets of seeds. Even with that correction I think that those packets will not hold enough seed for a single 100 acre farm for four years let alone four 100 acre farms for four years.
I think it would work better if that allocation of 1250 packets was meant to supply up to 100 acres of crop, but 400 acres and for four years just seems wildly optimistic.




NB: For all the conversions I've been using http://www.onlineconversion.com/area.htm