Railways Recovery In TW2000

[Hybris]

some interesting facts about Ethanol fuel and rail transportation.

http://www.aar.org/~/media/aar/Background-Papers/Railroad-Ethanol.ashx

http://www.ncdoi.com/OSFM/RPD/PT/Documents/Coursework/Ethanol/Module3_InstructorGuide.pdf

http://ethanolrfa.3cdn.net/6a072e57bf391090d1_18m6bccx5.pdf

http://www.chemkeys.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Best-Practices-for-Rail-Transport-of-Fuel-Ethanol.pdf

[Graebarde]

An intersting historical note on the use of highway trucks for use as motive power on rail. When the Allies started the Italian Campaign, the rail system in Italy was scrap from both bombings and the German destroying everything as they withdrew up the boot. The first MRS had no motive power to speak of when they landed in Naples. What they did initally is take the wheels off a rail car and mounted them on a 'duce' within a day or so, and had the first trains moving north with supplies. Each day they increased the number of trains and tonnage hauled.

This is a very interesting story/history of the 1st MRS from North Africa to the end of the war. Some interestesting insight that MIGHT be applied to Twilight 2000.

http://www.milhist.net/history/mrs-soloc.pdf

[Cdnwolf]

http://www.railmuseums.com/index.html

Interesting site of all the rail museums in the world that might have spare rolling stock.

[simonmark6]

I'm not sure how reliable that website is, according to it there are no railway museums in the UK when I can visit five within a fifty mile radius.

[Graebarde]

I'm not sure how reliable that website is, according to it there are no railway museums in the UK when I can visit five within a fifty mile radius.

I don't think it's all inclusive Simon. If you know of places not on the web, there is a place at the bottom of the select a section in which it says suggest rail museum. I think there are some in the US that are not listed as well. I know there WAS as logging rail in Cass WV way back. It might have shut down over the years though, but doubt it since they have an active web still advertising it.

[WallShadow]

...what I've seen a lot of are trucks fitted with fold-down bogies that drive up and down the railroad track. I wonder if a few of those, towing light trailers of freight, maybe a few passengers (going to work in fields, etc.) wouldn't be the start of a "rail recovery"....

But yeah, I could see a rail service truck with bogies hauling a few trailer-fulls of oranges to a central location to convert to fuel or food here in Central Florida....

Raketenjagjpanzer, those trucks-with-bogies are apparently called "high-rail" trucks and come in multiple sizes, styles and functions--with cranes/jibs, water tanks, dump buckets, or tool boxes. The bogies are after-market additions to commercial truck models. ISTR an action/crime dramafilm where the crooks' getaway included one of these speeding down an unused subway line.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Raketenjagjpanzer, those trucks-with-bogies are apparently called "high-rail" trucks and come in multiple sizes, styles and functions--with cranes/jibs, water tanks, dump buckets, or tool boxes. The bogies are after-market additions to commercial truck models. ISTR an action/crime dramafilm where the crooks' getaway included one of these speeding down an unused subway line.

Lethal Weapon 3. Yeah, I remember that too.

[stg58fal]

In all the discussion of getting trains back onto the tracks, I have seen little or no discussion of a vital aspect of running the rails--

Actually, I'd be a lot less worried about the signals and such, and a lot MORE worried about the condition of the ties, ballast, and rails themselves.

Wooden ties generally last 8-10 years, at best, on main line track. Yeah, you'll find places where they've been in the ground for 50 years, but that's on little-used sidings and industry tracks, not main.

I'd also be concerned about jointed rail. ANY rail, really, but moreso jointed than welded.

[Panther Al]

Actually, I'd be a lot less worried about the signals and such, and a lot MORE worried about the condition of the ties, ballast, and rails themselves.

Wooden ties generally last 8-10 years, at best, on main line track. Yeah, you'll find places where they've been in the ground for 50 years, but that's on little-used sidings and industry tracks, not main.

I'd also be concerned about jointed rail. ANY rail, really, but moreso jointed than welded.

Depends on how long the track has been out of service, but mainline rail should be in fairly good condition even after two to three years: A lot of the tricky bits - turnouts, and the like - might need some attention, but the bulk of the major mainlines even in the 90's was being converted over to concrete ties and welded 130 pound or higher rail in the US, and nearly all of Europe was converted over on the mains with the same as well. I would still take a gauging party down the tracks to confirm, especially where there might have been tracked vehicle activity on or near tracks, but I would feel reasonably confident to run down the tracks - slowly.

[stg58fal]

Depends on how long the track has been out of service, but mainline rail should be in fairly good condition even after two to three years: A lot of the tricky bits - turnouts, and the like - might need some attention, but the bulk of the major mainlines even in the 90's was being converted over to concrete ties and welded 130 pound or higher rail in the US, and nearly all of Europe was converted over on the mains with the same as well. I would still take a gauging party down the tracks to confirm, especially where there might have been tracked vehicle activity on or near tracks, but I would feel reasonably confident to run down the tracks - slowly.

I guess it must depend on the location and possibly RR, because in five different states the places I generally see concrete ties are on curves. Concrete come with their own set of problems as far as maintenance goes, and they cost a lot more than wood. They're a pain to replace or change the hardware out on, compared to wood. I friggin hate concrete ties.

The condition of the rails themselves isnt the only concern I'd have. I prob should have gone more into detail, but I kinda got caught up playing World of Tanks.

Without maintenance crews, the natural cycles of hot and cold are going to play merry hell on the lines. Especially hot. Welded rail isn't immune to that, either. You're right in that sending a vehicle to check gauge ahead of the train would most likely work, esp if you've got nothing against moving your cargo slowly. It'd suck to hit a spot where the heat made the track all wonky, doing it's best impersonation of a sidewinder snake, at 55 mph when you're hauling a couple hundred thousand tons of coal. Or, you know, ANYTHING for that matter.

After seeing what a week of 95-105 degree temps can do with rail (it's fun to cut when it's 105 degrees out), I hate to imagine what several years without maintenance would result in.

After a winter or two with no maintenance, I'd definitely be sending someone who knew what they were about ahead of any traffic on jointed rail. But I really dislike jointed rail. So that could be my personal opinion creeping in.

Also, the welded vs jointed is greatly dependent on the RR. I've seen one that has jointed (I'm pretty sure 115 lb) rail on their mains. And not some "corn field to grain silo" RR, either, they've got track through about half of one of the biggest states in the US. 'Course, they seem to exist more as a tax write-off for a certain mining billionaire more than anything else, so it doesn't surprise me that their track is....eh....."unsat" (In my opinion, of course).

[Targan]

I watched a really interesting documentary just the other day, it was from series 2 of Strip the City, episode 3: Chicago Swamp City. The main topic of the program was the amazing shared cooling system for buildings in downtown Chicago, but part of it was also about how Chicago's elevated rail system is maintained and the systems in place to mitigate against the buckling of rails during extreme heat.

As the Aussie members of this forum have testified many times before, Australia is well accustomed to extreme temperature swings, mostly in the hot direction. We don't have anywhere near as many rail lines as the US and Europe do, but some of the ones we have are very long and some were built to support absolutely massive loads for the remote mines across the country. Heat buckling can be a real problem here too.

The question I have is can welded rail be adversely affected by extreme cold Do rails contract in the cold as much as they expand in the heat, and if so, do the welds crack

[stg58fal]

The question I have is can welded rail be adversely affected by extreme cold Do rails contract in the cold as much as they expand in the heat, and if so, do the welds crack

Yes, but not to the extent that they are affected by heat. There's no cold equivalent to the pic you shared.

Welds can crack, yes. That's probably a combination of several factors. I've seen a few broken welds, but thus far breaks have usually been somewhere else.

[kalos72]

The other thing here is how fast you intend to run on those tracks

I mean in open country, unsecured areas, I doubt you will be running at high speeds. I would think slow enough to be able to see things ahead of you pretty easily.

Speed on damaged or poorly maintained tracks would be important as well...

[Panther Al]

I guess it must depend on the location and possibly RR, because in five different states the places I generally see concrete ties are on curves. Concrete come with their own set of problems as far as maintenance goes, and they cost a lot more than wood. They're a pain to replace or change the hardware out on, compared to wood. I friggin hate concrete ties.

The condition of the rails themselves isnt the only concern I'd have. I prob should have gone more into detail, but I kinda got caught up playing World of Tanks.

Without maintenance crews, the natural cycles of hot and cold are going to play merry hell on the lines. Especially hot. Welded rail isn't immune to that, either. You're right in that sending a vehicle to check gauge ahead of the train would most likely work, esp if you've got nothing against moving your cargo slowly. It'd suck to hit a spot where the heat made the track all wonky, doing it's best impersonation of a sidewinder snake, at 55 mph when you're hauling a couple hundred thousand tons of coal. Or, you know, ANYTHING for that matter.

After seeing what a week of 95-105 degree temps can do with rail (it's fun to cut when it's 105 degrees out), I hate to imagine what several years without maintenance would result in.

After a winter or two with no maintenance, I'd definitely be sending someone who knew what they were about ahead of any traffic on jointed rail. But I really dislike jointed rail. So that could be my personal opinion creeping in.

Also, the welded vs jointed is greatly dependent on the RR. I've seen one that has jointed (I'm pretty sure 115 lb) rail on their mains. And not some "corn field to grain silo" RR, either, they've got track through about half of one of the biggest states in the US. 'Course, they seem to exist more as a tax write-off for a certain mining billionaire more than anything else, so it doesn't surprise me that their track is....eh....."unsat" (In my opinion, of course).

I'm not a pro on railroads - my knowledge comes from modelling them - but I think these days Jointed is just a bad thing altogether. It was different back in the day (Up until, oh, the 50's perhaps) when the railroads could hire swarms of crew to make sure the lines was as in good a shape as you could possibly get from what I understand - I've seen period pics of double tracked mainlines where even the ballast was trimmed up in a neat perfectly straight line by crews as part of their job.

But speaking of ballast: this is what I think would doom most tracks without steady maintenance. Lack of traffic will help in keeping it together, sure, but weather is gonna do number on it - especially with washouts.

For example:

[stg58fal]

I'm not a pro on railroads - my knowledge comes from modelling them - but I think these days Jointed is just a bad thing altogether. It was different back in the day (Up until, oh, the 50's perhaps) when the railroads could hire swarms of crew to make sure the lines was as in good a shape as you could possibly get from what I understand - I've seen period pics of double tracked mainlines where even the ballast was trimmed up in a neat perfectly straight line by crews as part of their job.

But speaking of ballast: this is what I think would doom most tracks without steady maintenance. Lack of traffic will help in keeping it together, sure, but weather is gonna do number on it - especially with washouts.

For example:

Damn. At first I thought that was a serious mudhole, and I was going to say that track really needs to see an undercutter crew. Then I scrolled down a little bit.

Washouts are a real PITA, and I would imagine they would be one of the more difficult maintenance projects (aside from bridges) post-Apoc, since most of the machinery for dealing with them and getting the track back how it needs to be is going to be rusting in a siding somewhere. Yeah, ballast can be transported by wagon and dumped, spread, and tamped by hand, but damn that's going to suck. Guess that's what slav.....er, I mean, criminal and POW labor is for.

There are still crews that make the ballast neat, it's just usually reserved for main lines and sidings that see a lot of traffic, and it's not something that most maintenance personnel do since there are dedicated crews for it. Backtracks and industry tracks have a lower priority. There is a surfacing crew (who tamp the ballast between the ties and clean everything up) with the other maintenance crews, like the big tie gangs or rail gangs. The machines are kinda cool to watch when they're doing their thing, too. Just don't stand behind the ballast regulator when it's brooming the track. ANYWHERE behind one, I mean. They can throw rocks with a pretty good velocity a fair distance.

Jointed rail is OK I guess....it works for slower trains or on track with lower volume of traffic (from what I've seen....there's probably a formula somewhere that says whether jointed is OK for X tons of trains at Y speed or something). I just don't like it because it seems like the joints are generally where things go wrong, I'm pretty sure that trains have to run slower on it, and welded just looks neater.