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  • Alternative commercial shipping for T2K

    I don't want to talk about large shipping as I think we largely covered the subject. However, I don't see any reason for the Twilight War to stop world shipping. He would change it more than put an end to it.

    The Western (Modern) world would certainly find itself with the least seagoing capability as most people will find themselves lost without technologies. Still traditional fishermen and professional sailors could find their way around (at the time of T2K you would still find 10.000 traditional fishing ship in France alone).
    This, on the other hand, would not be true in most of the world. Most of the world sailors didn't and doesn't have access to much technologies and the war would not really change anything for their daily life at sea. Many ship were and are still made without technology.

    First, you'll find several sailing ship in the Western World (fishing ships, leisure ships and vintage ships). Among them you'll find several ship types in the Northern countries, along the US coast, in the Netherlands and England. Several will be pinnaces, yacht, ketch, pointu (Mediterranean)... Their size and capabilities will vary greatly but several should be capable of seagoing. With very little motor ships around they'll soon become the lord of the seas again. What is described for the "Constitution" shouldn't be an exception (outside it's size). Of course, several of these ships will be destroyed but most are located in small ports and will escape the war.

    Then, you'll find several arabic sailing ship (sometimes motor ship) that are used in the Indian Ocean, in the Red Sea, in the Persian Gulf and in the Mediterranean for commercial shipping.
    Among them, you'll find Badans, Dhows, Sambuks...
    They are capable of ocean travel and they are largely use for coastal shipping. In addition they are often built with no advanced technologies and little if any harbour facilities. They should see extensive use after the twilight war for commerce but also in the hand of pirates. Larger models such as the Baghla would be armed with ease and they would be capable of fairly long time on the high seas.

    You'll find also a large number of sailing ship in Asia with ships such as Junks, Praos, Sampans...A little more complex sometimes (the Junk) these ship will largely be around carrying good through various areas. In addition and unlike the Arabic models ships such as Junks are fully capable of going to the high sea.

    Less well known in our regions you'll find several type of ship built throughout Africa. However, despite limited high sea fishing, these ship will be more handy for coastal travel.

    Of course, I'm not even talking of sailing ships in Latin America.

    As a result, when canon states that international exchanges came to an end, it should be (IMO) a bit of an overstatement. Of course, international shipping as we know it disappeared but it must have been replaced by another form of more traditional shipping with piracy exploding. I think, that this can result in very interesting campaigns. When Jester made his campaign over Siberia, one of the main threats could have been Japanese, Korean and Russian small ships. Ship can cross the Channel on an almost daily bases. Shipping should remain well developped in the Mediterranean. Australia should have access to goods from all over South East Asia. Numerous ships should be travelling through the Carribean and along the American sea coasts... A sea captain willing to cross the Atlantic to pick up or bring operatives somewhere (or carrying sensitive cargoes even in small quantities) could make a huge fortune.

  • #2
    One step back, two steps forward

    If we are going back to sailing ships, think of it as an opportunity rather than a problem. Back in the early eighties I spent some time on a ship which, among other things, carried mail. I remember talking to a representative of the US post office, who was checking on the loading, who made the interesting comment that surface mail across the Atlantic was atually quicker during the Napoleonic wars...

    This wasn't a big, fast container ship to Europe, though - it was a small, slow general cargo boat to North Africa. We didn't have Satnav or GPS, or even Loran, but relied on sun and star sights with our sextants (and I remember on one occasion after a particularly cloudy Eastbound crossing rather nervously approaching Africa - or was it Europe, and how far away was it anyway - dead reckoning got that name for a reason!).

    Depending on the time of year and the route you choose, the Atlantic can be crossed by surprisingly small boats/ships.

    And wooden vessels can be VERY hard to pick up on radar, stealth sailing ships to land your special ops teams

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Mohoender View Post
      However, I don"t see any reason for the Twilight War to stop world shipping.
      I don't think there is any reason. A couple of the books already mention trade such as you mentioned, including international. Small world trade/shipping does continue.

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      • #4
        Something else to keep in mind is that there will still be boatyards capable of turning out yacht-size sailing craft in the West, and coastal fishing boats in the rest of the world. Quality timber, sails, rope, craftsmen, paint and so on... maybe those can be found, too. If one's in really good shape, and well-secured, they could try to expand themselves to making larger craft.

        Someone that has the capability to assemble these can put themselves in good shape. I'm thinking the UBF and the Civgov brigade in southern New England. If they don't have this kind of stuff, some might be available farther north up the coast Breaking into something like the Mystic Maritime Museum to grab plans might be a game.

        IIRC, there is a Challenge article on sailing craft, with some stats. Somewhere in the low forties issues
        My Twilight claim to fame: I ran "Allegheny Uprising" at Allegheny College, spring of 1988.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Adm.Lee View Post
          IIRC, there is a Challenge article on sailing craft, with some stats. Somewhere in the low forties issues
          Challenge issue 60, page 6 "Sailing: An Unofficial Variant". Includes a basic weather generation system and a variety of sail craft (large sailing yacht, racing yacht, fishing boat, lugger, interisland schooner, junk, training vessel and restored antique).
          sigpic "It is better to be feared than loved" - Nicolo Machiavelli

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          • #6
            Plenty of references I didn't have and live experience.

            Thanks people.

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            • #7
              Another example is in one of the American based modules. I can't remember which, but in the usual narrative "Getting there" it mentions a Brazilian schooner that trades along the eastern seaboard, carrying mostly timber or something. There might be some more info, but I can't recall.

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              • #8
                There is one vital thing that's been overlooked so far - skill.

                Particularly in western countries, the skill to effectively pilot a sail driven boat has becoming increasingly rare. Most recreational "sailors" tend to use engines more than wind power.
                Added to that, without high tech navigational aids such as GPS, many of these people will be restricted to "sailing" within sight of land.
                If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives.

                Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect"

                Mors ante pudorem

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Legbreaker View Post
                  Added to that, without high tech navigational aids such as GPS, many of these people will be restricted to "sailing" within sight of land.
                  True 'nuff. Accurate, modern charts would become very valuable.
                  sigpic "It is better to be feared than loved" - Nicolo Machiavelli

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                  • #10
                    I tatally agree with you Leg. Therefore, I think that third world sailors and traditional fishermen will find themselves with a tremendous advantage.

                    Something else will have to be manned again and that will be difficult and always realized on a very limited scale or so I think: find people to man lighthouses again.

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                    • #11
                      Problem with lighthouse on manning them, they would make themselves targets for marauders or pirates.

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                      • #12
                        Anyone have a good source for information about these sailing style ships I have been using the USS CONSTITUTION as a sample but I know there are many variations to those sailing ships.
                        "Oh yes, I WOOT!"
                        TheDarkProphet

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by kalos72 View Post
                          Anyone have a good source for information about these sailing style ships I have been using the USS CONSTITUTION as a sample but I know there are many variations to those sailing ships.
                          No real sources at the moment but here you'll find a list of the various ships that could have survived and that I could identify (country by country).

                          Brazil
                          - Cisne Branco


                          Columbia
                          - Three Mast Gloria (military vessel but sorry I lack its ID number)

                          Denmark
                          - Dannebrog Yacht (not a sailing ship but an interisting vessel nonetheless).

                          France
                          - Frigate Hermione (currently being rebuilt by a private association)

                          - Clipper Belem

                          - Duchesse Anne (not sailing anymore and sorry didn't find anything in english)


                          Germany
                          - A-60 Gorch Fock (Klasse 441)

                          Italy
                          - A5312 Amerigo Vespuci

                          - A5311 Palinuro
                          - A5313 Stella Polare
                          - A5316 Corsaro II
                          - Italia...


                          Japan
                          - Pre-dreadnaught battleship "Mikasa"

                          Russia
                          The ship belong to St Petersburg University and her name shoul be the "Mir"


                          UK
                          - HMS Victory

                          USA
                          - Frigate Constitution
                          - Corvette Californian (Cutter)
                          - WIX-327 Eagle (US coast guard)

                          Venezuela
                          - BE-11 Simon Bolivar

                          In addition, the last working steam yacht is harbored at Monaco (it belongs to a Belgian Billonaire's daughter but I don't know the name of the ship). A few drakkars are in sailing order in Norway (maned by crazy amateurs deserving respect)...

                          This is all I can do for now but I'm convinced that several more ships do exist. I just didn't do more research.
                          Here is the list given by Wiki


                          However, a friend of mine is deeply involved in a huge forum on classical ships and I'll try to find it. This friend is currently overworked and I might need several weeks to come up with the information.

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                          • #14
                            And the interesting wiki on Tall Ships (several articles on the subject and a good place to start). Good luck for further researches.


                            As you'll notice, for several countries you'll find a fair number of such ships and I have no doubt (again) that several more are to be around. Their main advantage being that for their servicing, you don't need the advanced shipyard you have to maintain for mordern engine ships.

                            Several would have been destroyed but many would survive as they were not primary target. However, much will depend on the nukes and on what you can make up of these vessels.

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                            • #15
                              The T2K Cornish Navy

                              Home page is here:



                              I like this ship in particular


                              There's even a link to the local technical college
                              We can't seem to find the page you're looking for Go to homepage

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