Anti Tank Rifles

[Targan]

It was and is considered that the .50 round caused excessive injury, and in the wording of the convention 'to ensure the death of the combatant'. The idea is you should be able to survive, no matter how torn up.

Colonel Charlie Beckwith, the founder of Team Delta, survived being shot through the torso by a 12.7mm round so there goes that idea.

Of course he wasn't your average human...

[Fusilier]

To employ arms, projectiles, or material of a nature to cause superfluous injury

I'm familiar with this. But haven't seen anything that lists specific weaponry or anything less vague and open to interpretation.

Do you have anything more Something that identifies these particular weapons

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Colonel Charlie Beckwith, the founder of Team Delta, survived being shot through the torso by a 12.7mm round so there goes that idea.

Of course he wasn't your average human...

Of course, the round had passed through the bottom of the helicopter he was a passenger in so it wasn't at full velocity by the time it hit him having passed through the hull and then the floor...

Another, more graphic, account of a soldier being hit by a 12.7mm round is the British soldier who was hit in the upper arm. He was fighting in the Falklands at the time and the round tore away the muscle essentially ending his use of that limb.

[Targan]

Of course, the round had passed through the bottom of the helicopter he was a passenger in so it wasn't at full velocity by the time it hit him having passed through the hull and then the floor...

Absolutely true and I thought about that at the time I made my post. The thing is though, 12.7mm/.50 cal rounds at full velocity or at reduced velocity are likely to do pretty much the same damage to the human body because unless they have spent nearly all their energy they will pass right through a meat target and out the other side without tumbling (thus imparting only a small fraction of their energy into the target). The round that hit Beckwith had, as you say, come through the bottom of a Huey and lets face it, a couple of layers of thin aluminium wouldn't slow a 12.7mm round very much at all.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

As you say, the .50 BMG is still going to have a lot of power behind it but I like to have as much information as I can get about a subject before drawing conclusions from it. In Beckwith's case, the round had travelled some distance from the ground and then hit the helicopter so it may have lost enough energy to not kill him outright.
Don't misunderstand me, he was a tough bastard - the medics said it wasn't worth doing triage on him because he was obviously dying, they obviously underestimated the man's will to live - but the loss of energy suffered by that round, no matter how small, is a significant factor in his survival.

[Targan]

In Beckwith's case, the round had travelled some distance from the ground and then hit the helicopter so it may have lost enough energy to not kill him outright.

Everything you say about the circumstances of Beckwith's shooting is true but perhaps I haven't been clear enough. The thing about a round like the 12.7mm or .50 cal is that they are a long, AP bullet. They don't fragment when they hit a human body, they don't expand and they don't tumble. This means that whether they hit you at 20 feet or at a kilometre they are still going to punch right through you. My point is that if the round doesn't fragment, expand or tumble there is a finite amount of energy it can impart to a human body before it punches out the other side, and that energy transfer is roughly the same whether the round is at full velocity or not.

This is a different situation to that of a pistol or rifle round that fragments, expands or tumbles when it hits a meat target, as those sorts of rounds are much more efficient at dumping their energy into a target.

[pmulcahy11b]

As far as I know, that is a popular military myth or urban legend. That there is no actual law of war pertaining to .50caliber weapons such as those used on people, it isn't in any international convention, etc. Certain laws do address bullet and weapon types (chemical / flame ) but nothing like caliber.

For interest sake, do you have any official verification

That is in fact a widely-believed urban myth, even in the military (at least the US military). But many of the laws of war in the Geneva and Hague conventions about weapons use are very poorly-written -- it almost seems as if the writers wanted them to be misunderstood. There are some that read like anything more deadly than a paintball would be considered to cause superfluous injuries.

(Hmmmmm...maybe it would be better that way...fight wars with paintballs rather than killing people.)

[pmulcahy11b]

Everything you say about the circumstances of Beckwith's shooting is true but perhaps I haven't been clear enough. The thing about a round like the 12.7mm or .50 cal is that they are a long, AP bullet. They don't fragment when they hit a human body, they don't expand and they don't tumble. This means that whether they hit you at 20 feet or at a kilometre they are still going to punch right through you. My point is that if the round don't fragment, expand or tumble there is a finite amount of energy it can impart to a human body before it punches out the other side, and that energy transfer is roughly the same whether the round is at full velocity or not.

This is a different situation to that of a pistol or rifle round that fragments, expands or tumbles when it hits a meat target, as those sorts of rounds are much more efficient at dumping their energy into a target.

And we have yet another thing that RPG rules in general don't really simulate very well.

[Targan]

And we have yet another thing that RPG rules in general don't really simulate very well.

Sadly true. I guess its a case of finding a rules set that does hmm As I have done. What is the rules set I use again I can't quite seem to remember...

[Legbreaker]

The term "hydrostatic shock" springs to mind as being somewhat relevant....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatic_shock

[Targan]

The term "hydrostatic shock" springs to mind as being somewhat relevant....

Agreed and I did have hydrostatic shock in the back of my mind as I was writing my posts. I have a couple of points the first is a quote from the end of that Wikipedia article:

"Maximizing the ballistic pressure wave effects requires transferring maximum energy in a penetration distance that meets this requirement. In addition, bullets that fragment and meet minimum penetration requirements generate higher pressure waves than bullets which do not fragment."

Also, the fact that Beckwith suffered a single, narrow wound channel injury and was in a helicopter descending to drop off its passengers suggests to me that the round that hit him had retained a significant fraction of its initial velocity. What's the max effective range of a 12.7mm AA gun, 1.5km or so The helo was probably at only a couple of hundred metres or less in altitude, and the round only had to go through a layer or two of thin aluminiun to hit Beckwith. It still had sufficient energy after leaving Beckwith's body to punch through the top of the helicopter and continue on its way. If it had been significantly slowed before it hit Beckwith it it would have been wobbling all over the place.

I'm not saying you guys are wrong by the way. I'm not an expert in this field. I'm just sharing my opinions based on the facts as I understand them.

[pmulcahy11b]

Sadly true. I guess its a case of finding a rules set that does hmm As I have done. What is the rules set I use again I can't quite seem to remember...

I'll have you burned at the stake for such blasphemy!

[Targan]

I'll have you burned at the stake for such blasphemy!

There's another thing that needs some work in the original T2K rules - burning.

[ChalkLine]

There's another thing that needs some work in the original T2K rules - burning.

In T2K any sort of significant burn would probably lead to death through infection.

[Targan]

In T2K any sort of significant burn would probably lead to death through infection.

There's another thing that needs some work in the original T2K rules - infection.