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  • #16
    The above ideas for utilizing urban space for food production are almost all quite good, and I feel they have a place in Twilight: 2000. The single greatest drawback, I believe, is that all of these ideas require a few things that will be in short supply in at least the United States in 1997. Provided some preconditions can be met, virtually all of the ideas above can be put into practice in at least some locations, if not many locations. As usual, I"m going to address conditions in the United States, as I don"t feel qualified to offer any but the most generalized ideas on the situation in other countries.

    The first precondition is sufficient order. In the first year after the TDM, there will be a lot of desperate fools running around who are more interested in taking what others might have than in producing for themselves. Fire is a danger that goes hand-in-hand with civil disorder. There are lots of options for dealing with the disorder, but it has to be dealt with before any sustained food production can be undertaken.

    The second precondition is stocks. Survivors need seed. Tools for intensive gardening, which is essentially what we"re talking about in a city, can be improvised. Seed cannot. This problem isn"t insurmountable, but again it has to be addressed if urban cultivation is to occur. By the same token, livestock must be procured from someplace if it"s going to be raised in an urban environment. The livestock is going to need to eat, too. How does one acquire chickens, rabbits (sigh), catfish, or crawfish in a post-Exchange American city There are answers, but we"ll need to provide them for the scenario to be believable.

    Going hand-in-hand with the issue of civil disorder, livestock is going to be a prime target for hungry survivors. Those who have chickens or ducks or whatever are going to have to fight for them or be very clever about concealing them.

    Water is another critical issue. After the TDM, electricity for pumping water will be out right across the country. People and crops need water, and they can"t go without it for very long. I have a bad habit of letting two or three days go by without watering my container tomatoes. The rainy season hasn"t started in California, so the only water those tomatoes are going to get comes from my hose. What would I do if the water were out The same applies to everything in my garden. In cities that get rain year-round, such as those cities east of the 100th Meridian, it may be possible to rely on a combination of rainfall and improvised cisterns. Throughout much of the American West, however, rainfall is both seasonal and scanty. The more the solution to acquiring water in these places depends on civil order, planning, cooperation, etc., the less likely the solution is to be executed. Albuquerque is in a much tougher spot than Cincinnati.

    At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I"m not saying that any of the proposed ideas for producing food in urban areas aren"t viable. I"m saying that opportunities have to exist. Crawfish are only going to be successfully farmed in places where the situation is not so chaotic as to preclude farming or animal husbandry, where there are crawfish to be found and kept alive during the initial turbulence, where there are adequate facilities (possibly the least restrictive requirement), where fresh water is available in sufficient quantity, and where food can be provided for the crawfish before they are eaten. The same goes for urban corn, albeit with a slightly modified list.

    As a consequence of all this, I think we have to look back at the timeframe between July, 1997 and November, 1997. What was really going on in the US during this time Howling Wilderness would have us believe that the American population was more-or-less caught by surprise by the nuclear attacks on US soil. To the degree that it is possible to make a sweeping generalization of the frame of mind of a nation of 280 million, what were Americans really thinking I"ve been writing a piece to address this timeframe, based on a careful reading of the rhythms of nuclear weapons use from July through November, 1997. I"ll try to summarize here by saying that I strongly doubt the nation was sitting on its collective hands during this time. Some people would be, of course. Denial is a powerful coping mechanism. However, the first use of nuclear weapons would have prompted a strong reaction. I don"t believe the nation (or any nation) would have found itself nearly as unprepared as if a nuclear attack had come out of the blue.

    Thunder Empire is an extreme case of preparedness. I have been trying to justify why the whole place didn"t blow away in the wind with my lengthy narratives on how certain characters drove contingency planning after the start of the Sino-Soviet War. Southeastern Arizona needs that kind of lead time in order to make it. Other parts of the countryparticularly the Midwestwill be better suited to a more Johnny-come-lately response. Five months isn"t enough time to start an effective State Guard from scratch, but it is enough time to affect public awareness about what to do in the event of a crisis. Ergo, many of the food-production solutions proposed in earlier posts are entirely plausible on a case-by-case basiseven where otherwise hard-to-imagine developments involving stockpiles of seed or livestock (poor bunnies) are involved.

    Webstral
    “We’re not innovating. We’re selectively imitating.” June Bernstein, Acting President of the University of Arizona in Tucson, November 15, 1998.

    Comment


    • #17
      Web:

      I think there will always be some crafty critters who survive and when the pressure comes off <like most of the anarchy crazed hoardes move on or die off> will rememerge and start to repopulate an area. Others, will wander and move into these now areas or ranges. This is quite common with animals. It is sorta like animal over population, where competition exists, they wander looking for greener pastures with less pressure for resources. And it is in the once over hunted areas that a few years ago thronged with survivors but when there was no longer food the people died/left, now the animals reclaim it.

      As for seed, they shall become a comodity, a valuable resource and mayber even its own currency. Although, some plants grow wild and could be cultivated.

      Water, yes some areas will be a problem. I propose that a city like Los Angeles would have its problems. However, alot of areas near the coast where we get lots of fog will be able to survive with moisture from the fog and mist and dew. That is what eneables the giant redwoods to thrive. And then cisterns and rainwater catches and I would even say pumps, elevators and simply manhandling the water. Filling a tank of water from a flooded underground garage to the second floor on monday. Tuesday you haul it to the 4th or 5th floor, Wed to the 6th or 7th, Thurs to the 8th or 9th, Fri to the 10th or 11th and so on and so on. A person can haul about 10 gallons a trip, 10 minutes a trip, so 60 gallons an hour, do it for two hours could net 120 gallons. Or, a elevator hauling 55 gallon drums or even an old hand pump.

      One could channel water from one of the numberous springs from the L.A. river into an underground garage where it would pool out of sight. Of course building the system would be the thing to do without notice.

      Here is a question. How many of us really consider water in our campaigns I mean, how bad would the water systems be between nuclear and chemical/bio weapons as well as politions, and contamination with disease If that is the case, then wouldn't water be a much bigger problem
      "God bless America, the land of the free, but only so long as it remains the home of the brave."

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      • #18
        Regarding chemical contamination of water supplies, I honestly have avoided attempting to model the problem. In one of my previous lives, I was a hazardous materials manager. Hazmat is ubiquitous. The sheer quantity of chemicals that would be released following the breakdown of society beggars the imagination.

        Webstral
        “We’re not innovating. We’re selectively imitating.” June Bernstein, Acting President of the University of Arizona in Tucson, November 15, 1998.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by jester View Post
          Water, yes some areas will be a problem. I propose that a city like Los Angeles would have its problems. However, alot of areas near the coast where we get lots of fog will be able to survive with moisture from the fog and mist and dew. That is what eneables the giant redwoods to thrive. And then cisterns and rainwater catches and I would even say pumps, elevators and simply manhandling the water. Filling a tank of water from a flooded underground garage to the second floor on monday. Tuesday you haul it to the 4th or 5th floor, Wed to the 6th or 7th, Thurs to the 8th or 9th, Fri to the 10th or 11th and so on and so on. A person can haul about 10 gallons a trip, 10 minutes a trip, so 60 gallons an hour, do it for two hours could net 120 gallons. Or, a elevator hauling 55 gallon drums or even an old hand pump.

          One could channel water from one of the numberous springs from the L.A. river into an underground garage where it would pool out of sight.
          A number of crafty inventions would make life easier. An Archimedes screw would serve well if attached to a stationary bicycle frame and a gear system for transferring the motion of pedaling to a system for turning the screw. The truly motivated might go so far as to install a tank on the top floor and a windmill to transfer wind energy to the gear system for turning the screw, plus a cut-off device for preventing overflow. Any halfway decent mechanic could manage such a thing.

          Alternatively, a bucket with a pulley and counterweight could raise considerable quantities of water for a low calorie count.

          Lots of possibilities present themselves, once sufficient order exists to implement them.

          Webstral
          “We’re not innovating. We’re selectively imitating.” June Bernstein, Acting President of the University of Arizona in Tucson, November 15, 1998.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by simonmark6 View Post
            That's not strictly true, Graebarde, when you were a kid it was all hunter gathering, agriculture hadn't really been invented in those days...
            ROTFLMAO
            Boy am I slow off the mark... But you know it might come back to that in some resepects, though the game will playout pretty dang fast, though they (game) are smarter than the urban hunters seeking them in most cases.

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            • #21
              Now that is true, in fact the easiest prey for city folk is city folk, we'll start off with looting and eventually some gang will work out that as their victims are going to starve anyway, they might as well eat them.

              Thus leading back to another thread on TK2 cuisine...

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              • #22
                Urban farming probably would be very subsistence in nature. At the turn of the (20th) century in the US, four farmers could feed ten people. I"m not clear on whether those four farmers were feeding themselves and six others or themselves and ten others. Obviously, there"s a big difference. However, even if we go with the smaller figure, forty percent of the population is producing food while sixty percent is doing something else. Urban farming probably would produce even smaller surplusesat least while the experience base was building.

                We"ve discussed ratios of farmers to non-farmers before, but I believe it"s a key factor in determining what the post-Exchange societies are like. According to Howling Wilderness, somewhat more than half of the pre-war US population is dead by January 2001. I won"t debate whether this figure is realistic other than to observe that the survival rate varies enormously from place to place. Colorado is supposed to have 90% of its pre-war population, while according to Howling Wilderness Arizona, New Mexico, and Nevada are virtual wastelands. Even in my considerably more optimistic Thunder Empire, only twenty percent of pre-war Arizonans are alive in January 2001; about 60% of the survivors live in the three counties in the southeastern part of the state.

                Mind, I"m not knocking subsistence farming. The more folks survive to more stable times, the quicker the march back up the ladder of progress will be by, say, 2010. Really, that has been one of the main points of Thunder Empire; the goal of the leadership has been to keep as many Americans alive while the post-Exchange situation sorts itself out. In due time, improved practices should result in more efficient farming methods and an increase in the non-farming population. I guess I"m supporting Mo"s thesis that urban farmers supplement, while the majority of the food comes in from outside the urban area in a reproduction of the situation in Krakow.

                Webstral
                “We’re not innovating. We’re selectively imitating.” June Bernstein, Acting President of the University of Arizona in Tucson, November 15, 1998.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by simonmark6 View Post
                  Now that is true, in fact the easiest prey for city folk is city folk, we'll start off with looting and eventually some gang will work out that as their victims are going to starve anyway, they might as well eat them.

                  Thus leading back to another thread on TK2 cuisine...
                  And also leading back to a post I made (about using tallow as biodiesel) in the Alternative Fuels thread. The more people you kill the more you get to eat and the further you can drive. Nasty.
                  sigpic "It is better to be feared than loved" - Nicolo Machiavelli

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                  • #24
                    Solar collectors/concentrators for farming and other things.

                    If we have dared to borrow from GDW's other lines of RPGs (Dark Conspiracy, 2300 AD, Cadillacs & Dinosaurs) why not steal, errr, creatively mimic one of the backbone technologies of Space: 1889, the Solar boiler, or in this case, solar concentrator.
                    The stage is set:
                    The Duke is sending out raiding parties for very odd items: satellite dishes and mounts ("Duke must have a link to the Mil-Gov ComNet"); mirrors of all kinds, even pieces of broken ones ("to defend against the Vampires, of course!"), Spotlights from the Broadway theaters ("He's gonna use them to hunt the dements/Mayor's troops/Dragons/Dragon Lords/River Vikings at night!", and rear-projection TV sets ("Hey, mebbe he's gonna show movies or sumpthin' to the Downtowners I dunno...")

                    What the Duke IS gonna do is make as many mirror-lined satellite dish collectors that he can, and mount them on buildings that oversee rooftop gardens. By maneuvering the collectors, additional hours and concentrations of insolation may be applied to the plants struggling with the adverse growing conditions. Adding the Fresnel lenses from the spotlights and rear projection TVs will enable the users to concentrate the light even more, turning the parabolic collectors into giant magnifying glasses, which might, when multiple units are focused on a single target in a sort of solar furnace mode, might conveniently burst into flame or collapse from hyperthermia, or be blinded by the concentrated glare. Nice weapon for a sunny day

                    This sort of focused sunlight can be made to power a boiler for a small steam engine, or to boil water to purify it, or to cook food without fuel or smoke, or....

                    Large solar furnaces can generate temperatures of up to 6330 F, but even small, crude ones may reach over 2000 F.

                    Thought just crossed my mind--what if a solar furnace caught the flash from a nuke on a clear day
                    "Let's roll." Todd Beamer, aboard United Flight 93 over western Pennsylvania, September 11, 2001.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      I think what you would find after TDM here in the USA is a lot of small, family size gardens. One of the MAJOR issues, as I see it, is/was/will be the THANKSGIVING DAY Massacre.....

                      Think about the timing for a moment. Thanksgiving day is the fourth Thursday in November. If you are any where north of the Carolinas, you have a small problem with growing anything. It's called winter......

                      PLUS both v1 and v2.2 mention an extremely cold winter after TDM....

                      So even in the southern states, growing anything outside is going to be iffy at best.

                      May be, if you are REALLY LUCKY and skilled, you could rig a green house for some planting over the winter.

                      More realistic, you have to wait until spring. Then hope you have enough skills to manage a small garden. AND you have enough food to last until the crop matures. AND you can keep the bad guys out of your garden. Both the four legged and two legged varieties. (The squrells and rabbits end up in the soup pot!! That is why God invented the .22!! )

                      IF you manage all of this...then come summer, you finnally get to eat a good meal.

                      My wife is a wizard when it comes to growing things. IF I can keep her alive, then we have a chance. Me, I have the proverbial black thumb. I kill cactus.

                      I would think a crop of sweet potatoes (Grows very well here in NC) and soy beans (Ditto) would be the answer. May be a small herb garden for trading

                      My $0.02

                      Mike

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by mikeo80 View Post
                        I think what you would find after TDM here in the USA is a lot of small, family size gardens. One of the MAJOR issues, as I see it, is/was/will be the THANKSGIVING DAY Massacre.....

                        Think about the timing for a moment. Thanksgiving day is the fourth Thursday in November. If you are any where north of the Carolinas, you have a small problem with growing anything. It's called winter......

                        PLUS both v1 and v2.2 mention an extremely cold winter after TDM....
                        Which dovetails nicely into the books where it states a large proportion of the wars casualties weren't from the nukes themselves. We know bullets and bombs do a lot of damage, but starving mobs are in my opinion at least, probably nearly as destructive as a nuke when searching for food, shelter and medicines. At a guess, casualties after the nukes will be mainly from conflicts between those who have not, and those who have, or even just perceived to have.

                        A "fun" time to be alive....

                        Those who survive until the 1998 harvest are going to be the toughest of the tough and have likely done some pretty damn horrific things to stay alive over that first winter and spring. By 2000-2001 not too many squeamish types will be left and trusting anyone outside your immediate circle of survivors will be a thing of the past.
                        If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives.

                        Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect"

                        Mors ante pudorem

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Legbreaker View Post
                          Those who survive until the 1998 harvest are going to be the toughest of the tough and have likely done some pretty damn horrific things to stay alive over that first winter and spring. By 2000-2001 not too many squeamish types will be left and trusting anyone outside your immediate circle of survivors will be a thing of the past.
                          I agree with this sentiment. Which leads me to an interesting question. How could MilGov or CivGov even survive

                          It seems to me that any one who survives TDM and the aftermath, did so on their own or with a VERY small group of like minded individuals. This is not the stuff of nation building. At least, not yet.

                          It seems to me that if MilGov or CivGov comes to me and mine, the first response is "And just what the F*** did you do for us when we needed help. We survived with out you then. We will survive with out you now. Leave. NOW."

                          Mil Gov would have an advantage in this type of discussion. They do control most of the existing military assets. A small bunch of survivors is going to have a difficult time saying "NO" to a squad of soldiers in a M113/V150/name your favorite light armored vehicle. But Mil Gov does have to tred lightly. They can kill only so many "traitors" before there is no one else to rule.

                          My $0.02

                          Mike

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                          • #28
                            There are indications in the books that military units were used for civil relief missions in the nuke aftermath. Those areas which received this assistance are likely to be favourable to the government. As most of these units then sided with Milgov, Civgov is definitely in the weaker position with only a handful of areas coming on board with the units they gain. Civgov does have the advantage in the PR war though as much of their governmental manpower is likely to have been involved with politics at some point, while Milgovs leadership is much more used to simply issuing orders and having them obeyed without having to convince those under it's power (the military) that they a) know what they're doing and b) it's in their best interests. Civilians are more likely therefore to resent Milgov control and over time drift towards Civgov sympathies. This is likely to take a few years though.

                            Milgov will have to either learn a little "tact" or expect to loose supporters (unless they use more and more authoritarian methods).

                            However, generally the populace will support the organisation which is putting food in their bellies and a roof over their head no matter how harshly they may be treated. If martial law and curfews is what's required to keep you from starving, it's a small concession to make...

                            Milgov may also have the leg up on Civgov during reconstruction s they're less likely to care about how the people feel. If a civil engineering task needs to be done, they'll simply assign those people necessary to the task to it. If farmland needs tilling, crops weeded or harvested, then manpower will be made available.

                            Civgov on the other hand will need to be more "diplomatic" about things, lacking both military manpower to force the people, and generally being fundamentally opposed to such heavy handedness.

                            Getting back to the topic of the thread, it would therefore seem likely small plots of land under crops would be more common in Civgov controlled regions where government controls are lacking (in comparison) and large scale operations harder to organise.
                            If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives.

                            Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect"

                            Mors ante pudorem

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                            • #29
                              I think with the lead up to Nuclear Exchange you could Victory Gardens coming back


                              I will not hide. I will not be deterred nor will I be intimidated from my performing my duty, I am a Canadian Soldier.

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                              • #30
                                Given combat had only been happening for 7-8 months before nukes were used, would that really be likely on a wide scale
                                Also, up until the first nukes were fired, Nato was holding the upper hand and actually winning!
                                If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives.

                                Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect"

                                Mors ante pudorem

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