The value of Precious Stones

[natehale1971]

Hello everyone,

I have been looking over a few things as reference, and haven't been able to find the kind of information about Precious Stones that I have been able to find about precious metals and I need some help... So I'm asking you guys for help on this.

I know that when it comes to precious stones, black market and smugglers use diamonds since they where so very hard to trace or find out where they originated form (well, until they started putting those microscopic size serial numbers on them to counter the use of blood diamonds).

How are precious stones priced I know that metals are priced by weight. But I haven't been able to figure out how they price precious stones. So I have asked here and on a T2k mailing list for anyone's help on figuring this out

Also, does anyone know how much Platinium and Palladium are worth

I know value of precious metals are Platinium, Gold, Palladium, and then Silver. How about precious stones

[copeab]

I'm not that sure that precious metals or stones are going to be worth that much in T2K. The primary reason they are used as currency is because they have little real vale otherwise. You can't fire gold from a gun, eat or drink gold, or use use gold to fuel your generator. Ten kilos of gold is just shiny metal; ten kilos of lead can at least be used to make bullets.

(this is a long way of saying that I think in 2000 you will see mostly barter)

[natehale1971]

I'm not that sure that precious metals or stones are going to be worth that much in T2K. The primary reason they are used as currency is because they have little real vale otherwise. You can't fire gold from a gun, eat or drink gold, or use use gold to fuel your generator. Ten kilos of gold is just shiny metal; ten kilos of lead can at least be used to make bullets.

(this is a long way of saying that I think in 2000 you will see mostly barter)

Very true, but even in such a situation people would still be desiring such items (even dollars might still be seen of value in some areas). There were alot of people complaining about the use of dollars in Romero's zomibe movie 'Land of the Dead'... but something has value if anyone has a desire to own or pocess it (thus why we call them precious metals and stones).

Value exists in what someone is willing to give you for it. Now I really do agree that metals like lead and steel (gunpowder and brass cartridges for that matter) would be worth alot more than any precious metals and/or stones we still have to realize that there are others out there who place more value on other items and make them more valuable than we'd expect (thus why Gold and Silver prices increase when cash currencies decline). Hell, fuel would be worth alot more than anything else in a post-apoc setting as we saw in Road Warrior and Beyond the Thunderdome since production would be nearly impossible.

But we humans are very strange that way we desire in what we desire to pocess.

But everything has to have something to measure itself upon. It's one of the reasons why people didn't understand the d20 Modern use of Wealth checks (or purchase checks) instead of monatary values. But people had/have such a hard time using the Wealth check system, we had to come up with monetary values for 'extras' that our characters would have while using the wealth system for the more mudane things they would already pocess.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

The problem with precious stones is that the vast majority of people don't know what they are actually worth and most of us don't even know what stones are really gemstones without some sort of reference book. Diamonds are vastly overvalued and are intrinsically worthless to the average person, I believe the same would apply to any gemstones in the post-apocalypse world.

As for precious metals, platinum and palladium are so rare in the marketplace that it is highly unlikely most people will ever deal with them except as jewellery. Even then, most people have no clear idea of how much they are worth so I doubt many people would accept these metals in trade if for no other reason than the fact that most people would not even recognize them for what they are when they saw them. In fact, platinum is not even sold to the average person off the street and in nearly every 1st World nation, someone trying to buy/sell it without a legitimate dealer's licence is going to be investigated by the police (I have a friend who works in the mining industry, platinum is such a controlled metal that the company he works for requires a licence to possess a minor amount of platinum)

Gold and silver are very different, easier to mine and refine and almost universally recognized as gold or silver. Both can be valued reasonably accurately by simply weighing them as they should both be about 99% purity when cast into ingots. The other metals are much harder to judge because who really knows the weight expected from an ingot of pure palladium except for an expert or metallurgist
But I do believe their value will be based entirely on whether someone is prepared to accept them as trade because they will be hoping (indeed, "banking" on the idea) that the money market will re-establish itself and the gold/silver will be worth something in the future.

[natehale1971]

The problem with precious stones is that the vast majority of people don't know what they are actually worth and most of us don't even know what stones are really gemstones without some sort of reference book. Diamonds are vastly overvalued and are intrinsically worthless to the average person, I believe the same would apply to any gemstones in the post-apocalypse world.

As for precious metals, platinum and palladium are so rare in the marketplace that it is highly unlikely most people will ever deal with them except as jewellery. Even then, most people have no clear idea of how much they are worth so I doubt many people would accept these metals in trade if for no other reason than the fact that most people would not even recognize them for what they are when they saw them. In fact, platinum is not even sold to the average person off the street and in nearly every 1st World nation, someone trying to buy/sell it without a legitimate dealer's licence is going to be investigated by the police (I have a friend who works in the mining industry, platinum is such a controlled metal that the company he works for requires a licence to possess a minor amount of platinum)

Gold and silver are very different, easier to mine and refine and almost universally recognized as gold or silver. Both can be valued reasonably accurately by simply weighing them as they should both be about 99% purity when cast into ingots. The other metals are much harder to judge because who really knows the weight expected from an ingot of pure palladium except for an expert or metallurgist

But I do believe their value will be based entirely on whether someone is prepared to accept them as trade because they will be hoping (indeed, "banking" on the idea) that the money market will re-establish itself and the gold/silver will be worth something in the future.

Thank you! I didn't know platinium was such a monitored and controlled precious metal. But it'd make a damn good plot hook (a government vault full of the stuff could be really good if set in continental US with the MilGov/CivGov/New America race to get it)!

I have only asked about the diamonds since it was so popular with blackmarketers and smugglers, and since most of the economy for major equipment would be under control by those types of pople I was wondering just how much they would be worth...

How do others handle them in their games just handwave what the diamonds are worth and go with that because that is what i'm really leaning towards at the moment.

[Targan]

I'm not that sure that precious metals or stones are going to be worth that much in T2K. The primary reason they are used as currency is because they have little real vale otherwise. You can't fire gold from a gun, eat or drink gold, or use use gold to fuel your generator. Ten kilos of gold is just shiny metal; ten kilos of lead can at least be used to make bullets.

This may sound a bit pedantic but as gold has very similar properties to lead I'm certain you could use gold in place of lead to make bullets. I understand the point you are making but in this case gold isn't a very good example. You could also use gold for solder when making electronic repairs (in the unlikely event that a T2K character has the ability to make repairs to circuit boards or even any such equipment to repair).

[copeab]

This may sound a bit pedantic but as gold has very similar properties to lead I'm certain you could use gold in place of lead to make bullets. I understand the point you are making but in this case gold isn't a very good example. You could also use gold for solder when making electronic repairs (in the unlikely event that a T2K character has the ability to make repairs to circuit boards or even any such equipment to repair).

I didn't want to use silver, 'cause in some campaigns silver bullets may be useful ...

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Well I suppose what we are really talking about is just how useful is the material to the survivors Like Copeab mentioned, lead is going to be more in demand than say gold but the important question is why and the answer is although you can make bullets out of gold like you can with lead (or indeed any suitable metal), lead is easier to work with and is found in greater abundance.
Lead is used as sheeting for rooftops and gutters, it can be formed into pipes, bowls and other implements whereas gold is much less useful for such things (sure there's the lead poisoning bit but you get my meaning) You'd probably want to keep the gold for soldering or electrical repairs like Targan mentioned.

I think the same thing applies to the gemstones, if I'm going to trade 20 rounds of .44Magnum, a thick wool jumper and two MREs with you, I want something useful in return and I mean immediately useful like rifle ammunition or directions to the closest trading town or alcohol for my generator. To paraphrase Copeab again, I can't eat a handful of rubies, assuming I'm even skilled enough to recognize them as rubies.

These items i.e. precious stones/metals are really only coveted because someone likes the look of them, they're pretty and because they're in demand for such vanity purposes, they become valuable. Gold is good for backing up currency but only because people believe gold is valuable. It's only valuable because it is relatively rare and people want to own it. I think for most people in the immediate aftermath, gold coins/ingots etc. may possibly retain the belief in their value but I don't think many people will see gemstones in the same manner, they'll just be pretty stones.

[headquarters]

isnt gold actually excellent

for bullets

hehe

I hear it has great density and is very mallable.

Gold bullets - no there is a weapon to show fire superiority ...

Other than that I agree with those who say that precious metal and stones are precious only as long as there is a need/market .

i.e the agreed price / trust in the market price disappears for such items as foodstuff become more important and expensive .

Once pickles start to look more tempting than teh same weight of gems its lost its value...

yes- I read that in a nobel discertation on economics

[Ironside]

I think gold and silver is still going to have value (in certain places), as a medium of exchange. In the free city of Krakow or other places where 'normal' trade still goes on, gold and silver have an agreed-upon value and are still useful. Some merchants who have dealings with such places would still value it.

It really depends on local conditions I guess.

I think that there is going to be some demand for jewellery; after all, even your average psycopathic warlord is going to want some to hang on their significant other to demonstrate their power and wealth.

[Mohoender]

I'm going a bit away from precious stones/metals but I would expect seashelves to retake their full place as currency in Africa. I would also expect salt to become again one of the most precious stone in many places.

If it goes to precious metals, I don't think gold will remain valuable for long (except for jewelry) as there is not enough gold and it is almost useless outside of a stock exchange system. As it was the case up to the 19th century it will more possibly be replaced by silver and copper.

Just a simple question: how many people hold some significant amount of gold
Still today, about every family (extended ones I mean) hold some silver dishes (plain or not), some brass or copper piece of arts...

One last thing. I would also expect steel to quickly become highly valuable.

[Fusilier]

These items i.e. precious stones/metals are really only coveted because someone likes the look of them, they're pretty and because they're in demand for such vanity purposes, they become valuable. I think for most people in the immediate aftermath, gold coins/ingots etc. may possibly retain the belief in their value but I don't think many people will see gemstones in the same manner, they'll just be pretty stones.

I think diamonds would be useful and in trade, especially in the larger organized cities and regions. In today's world, over 80% of diamonds are used not for vanity, but for industrial purposes. Cutting, abrasives, heat conductors, drilling, electronics, etc.

I would also expect salt to become again one of the most precious stone in many places.

Salt merchants and sea salt production has been an element within my game.

[headquarters]

bronze and brass

I got something on bronze - it doesnt rust .
Therefore gunbarrels etc were made of this for maritime use well into the 1800s .

With the end of cheap steal , longevity in products will be valued ,and maybe these materials will be used again .

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I think diamonds would be useful and in trade, especially in the larger organized cities and regions. In today's world, over 80% of diamonds are used not for vanity, but for industrial purposes. Cutting, abrasives, heat conductors, drilling, electronics, etc...

Salt merchants and sea salt production has been an element within my game.

Diamonds will only have that value for as long as the electricity, the machine parts, the lubricants and the skilled workers are around to make use of them. To manufacture the items for industrial diamond use requires more infrastructure and resources than will likely be left after the war. However, for someone who has access to these things, their demand for diamonds could make it very profitable for someone to collect them for trade.

Salt becomes valuable simply because it is a necessity for life even without the idea of using it for food preservation or tanning skins etc. And this is a major part of the discussion about things like precious metals and gemstones... if someone believes they are a important, then they will have value. That value is obviously going to be based on how much of a desire there is for the item, how much of it is availalbe and how easy it is to obtain it.
People will make big efforts to recover salt because they know how important it is but will they see the importance in some glassy lumps that look like diamonds when they have no particular use for diamonds

More importantly, despite what many women will tell you, the majority of people cannot easily tell the difference between real diamonds, diamond-cut crystal, cubic zirconium and diamontes because to really test it you need to conduct test measuring light refraction, heat, adherence of water & oil and the overall lustre. Yes the 'diamonds cut glass' trick does work but there are a number of modern materials such as synthetic sapphires and some new carbon products that will do the same.
About the only sure way for an unskilled person to rule out the others is to use the diamond like a magnifying glass, if it fails dismally at that task, it is more likely to be a real diamond than the other 'gems' mentioned.

Don't think I am rejecting the idea of someone in the post-apocalypse world wanting diamonds (or any other precious metal/stone), it's just that I really do think that for all the trouble it would be to determine whether they are real or fake let alone what they are actually worth will be more trouble than most people would care to indulge in. Without some central group who will underwrite the value of these precious metals/stones and guarantee that they're real, I don't think many people are going to want to take the chance of accepting some shiny glass stones as payment when they can take the shotgun and ten boxes of 12g shells instead.

[pmulcahy11b]

for bullets

A gold bullet can actually do a lot more damage than a hollowpoint or even a dumdum -- but it will also foul your bore more quickly and its questionable whether a gold bullet can even penetrate the denser bones of a human body (such as the skull, femur, pelvis, and whatever the upper arm bone is called), merely cracking them instead.

A better use for gold is as a fine dust. If you have someone on the inside of an organization for a while, you can assassinate by putting gold dust in their food in small quantities for a few months, and they will die of massive organ failure induced by heavy metal poisoning. And, it's tricky to diagnose! (I saw that one on an episode of House , but I followed up with some internet research, and it's true.)