Ireland/Northern Ireland Timeline

[Matt W]

Exercise Armageddon

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article6814997.ece

The real-world plan of attack for the Irish army

[Webstral]

I lived in Cork during the '90-'91 school year as an exchange student at UC Cork. One of my housemates was an Irish reservist--a sniper. Living with him was very revealing.

Webstral

[RN7]

British Army orbat for Northern Ireland for the 1980's.

NORTHERN IRELAND

33 Independent Field Sqn RE, Antrim
Provisional Regiment AAC, Aldergrove
4 Royal Irish Rangers, Portadown
5 Royal Irish Rangers, Lurgan
102 Light Air Defence Regiment RA, Newtownards

8 Infantry Brigade, Londonderry

• 1 Queens Own Highlanders, Aldergrove
• 1 Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, Ballykelly
• 1 Royal Anglian Regiment, Londonderry
• 1 Queen"s Regiment, Omagh

39 Infantry Brigade, Lisburn

• 1 Royal Highland Fusiliers, Holywood
• 1 Devonshire & Dorset Regiment, Ballykinlar

Ulster Defence Regiment

• 1 UDR, Ballymena
• 2 UDR, Armagh
• 3 UDR, Ballykinlar
• 4 UDR, Enniskillen
• 5 UDR, Limavady
• 6 UDR, Omagh
• 7 UDR, Holywood
• 8 UDR, Dungannon
• 9 UDR, Antrim
• 10 UDR, Belfast
• 11 UDR, Portadown

74 Engineer Regiment, Belfast
655 Sqn AAC, det to Aldergrove

[Rainbow Six]

British Army orbat for Northern Ireland for the 1980's.

NORTHERN IRELAND

33 Independent Field Sqn RE, Antrim
Provisional Regiment AAC, Aldergrove
4 Royal Irish Rangers, Portadown
5 Royal Irish Rangers, Lurgan
102 Light Air Defence Regiment RA, Newtownards

8 Infantry Brigade, Londonderry

• 1 Queens Own Highlanders, Aldergrove
• 1 Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, Ballykelly
• 1 Royal Anglian Regiment, Londonderry
• 1 Queen"s Regiment, Omagh

39 Infantry Brigade, Lisburn

• 1 Royal Highland Fusiliers, Holywood
• 1 Devonshire & Dorset Regiment, Ballykinlar

Ulster Defence Regiment

• 1 UDR, Ballymena
• 2 UDR, Armagh
• 3 UDR, Ballykinlar
• 4 UDR, Enniskillen
• 5 UDR, Limavady
• 6 UDR, Omagh
• 7 UDR, Holywood
• 8 UDR, Dungannon
• 9 UDR, Antrim
• 10 UDR, Belfast
• 11 UDR, Portadown

74 Engineer Regiment, Belfast
655 Sqn AAC, det to Aldergrove

Isn't this missing the 3rd Infantry Brigade in South Armagh

There was also a Royal Military Police presence...I'm not 100% on this but think it might have been 173 Provost Company at Lisburn (at least from August 87 - the lineage of RMP Companies in NI seems a bit complex...a lot of Provost Companies and Regiments have been disbanded then reformed over the years).

The Infantry Battalions are also complicated by the fact that additional Battalions (and occasionally Royal Artillery Field Regiments) transferred in on short term roulement tours. (I'm guessing the orbat above is showing the Battalions on long term tours at the time).

Finally, I think at during at least part of the 80's there was also an Army Guard Force at the Maze prison which may have been a detached Squadron from an Armoured Regiment or Battery from an Artillery Regiment (operating in an infantry role without their respective tanks / artilley pieces). Again I think this was a short term roulement posting.

Cheers

[RN7]

Isn't this missing the 3rd Infantry Brigade in South Armagh

Yes the 3rd Brigade was not included in this orbat I was sourcing. I just used this orbat to add additional information for British forces in Northern Ireland. The 3rd Infantry Brigade was based in Portadown from 1974 till 2004 which I refered to in an earlier post.

There was also a Royal Military Police presence...I'm not 100% on this but think it might have been 173 Provost Company at Lisburn (at least from August 87 - the lineage of RMP Companies in NI seems a bit complex...a lot of Provost Companies and Regiments have been disbanded then reformed over the years).

I think 6th Regiment Royal Military Police currently covers Northern Ireland.

6 Regiment RMP
Regimental Training Wing
Operations Company
173 (Operations) Platoon
177 (Support) Platoon
Police Company
175 (Provost) Platoon
176 (Provost) Platoon

Also 8 Detachment, 243 Provost Company (Volunteers) was in Lisburn Northern Ireland for a period.

The Infantry Battalions are also complicated by the fact that additional Battalions (and occasionally Royal Artillery Field Regiments) transferred in on short term roulement tours. (I'm guessing the orbat above is showing the Battalions on long term tours at the time).

They were listed as deployed to Northern Ireland in 1984-85.

Finally, I think at during at least part of the 80's there was also an Army Guard Force at the Maze prison which may have been a detached Squadron from an Armoured Regiment or Battery from an Artillery Regiment (operating in an infantry role without their respective tanks / artilley pieces). Again I think this was a short term roulement posting.

In 1982 I think elements of the Queens Royal Irish Hussars were part of the guard force for the Maze Prison.

[Rainbow Six]

I think 6th Regiment Royal Military Police currently covers Northern Ireland.

6 Regiment RMP
Regimental Training Wing
Operations Company
173 (Operations) Platoon
177 (Support) Platoon
Police Company
175 (Provost) Platoon
176 (Provost) Platoon

Also 8 Detachment, 243 Provost Company (Volunteers) was in Lisburn Northern Ireland for a period.

You're right, it's currently 6th Regiment that covers NI, although that wasn't established until June 2000, so wouldn't exist in T2K.

As best as I can tell 1st Regiment was in place until March 1985, at which point it disbanded and its constituent Companies (which included 173 and possibly 174 Provost Companies) became independent. So in a T2K setting a GM could probably keep 1st Regiment in place if desired.

That said, I've always thought that canon envisaged most regular British forces being pulled out of Northern Ireland at some point during 1997 and moved to Europe, with their place being taken by a fully mobilised Ulster Defence Regiment.

So, if you go by canon it makes perfect sense to me that the UDR would then take on the title 36th (Ulster) Division (as suggested by Canadian Army), and provide the vast majority of the infantry soldiers in NI, whilst a small number of British Regulars (or TA) from the Royal Signals, Royal Engineers (for EOD), and Army Air Corps fill 36 Division's various support roles. Personally, I would also attach 1 Regiment RMP and (possibly) 3 Squadron RAF Regiment (as you mentioned earlier) to 36th Division.

[RN7]

You're right, it's currently 6th Regiment that covers NI, although that wasn't established until June 2000, so wouldn't exist in T2K.

As best as I can tell 1st Regiment was in place until March 1985, at which point it disbanded and its constituent Companies (which included 173 and possibly 174 Provost Companies) became independent. So in a T2K setting a GM could probably keep 1st Regiment in place if desired.

Well I dunno, 176 Provost Company was actually part of 2nd Regiment RMP which I think has now been disbanded, while I have since seen that 254 Provost Company (Volunteers) TA which I think has been disbanded, was also in Northern Ireland and part of the 2nd Regiment. 243 Provost Company (Volunteers) was based in Scotland but 8 detachment was in Ireland, and 243 Provost Company was part of the 5th Regiment RMP which was HQ in Germany along with 1st Regiment RMP. 3rd & 4th regiments RMP seem to be mainly home based units but none of their units were in Ireland. Not much logic to it at all I'm afraid!

That said, I've always thought that canon envisaged most regular British forces being pulled out of Northern Ireland at some point during 1997 and moved to Europe, with their place being taken by a fully mobilised Ulster Defence Regiment.

Could be.

So, if you go by canon it makes perfect sense to me that the UDR would then take on the title 36th (Ulster) Division (as suggested by Canadian Army), and provide the vast majority of the infantry soldiers in NI, whilst a small number of British Regulars (or TA) from the Royal Signals, Royal Engineers (for EOD), and Army Air Corps fill 36 Division's various support roles. Personally, I would also attach 1 Regiment RMP and (possibly) 3 Squadron RAF Regiment (as you mentioned earlier) to 36th Division.

The only problem here would be that the 36th (Ulster) Division was disbanded in 1919 and never reformed, even during WW2. However one of its brigades (107th) was active until 2006 and present in Ireland. An oversized largely UDR infantry brigade or a brigade group padded out by a small number of army and TA regulars may have been more realistic.

[Rainbow Six]

Well I dunno, 176 Provost Company was actually part of 2nd Regiment RMP which I think has now been disbanded, while I have since seen that 254 Provost Company (Volunteers) TA which I think has been disbanded, was also in Northern Ireland and part of the 2nd Regiment. 243 Provost Company (Volunteers) was based in Scotland but 8 detachment was in Ireland, and 243 Provost Company was part of the 5th Regiment RMP which was HQ in Germany along with 1st Regiment RMP. 3rd & 4th regiments RMP seem to be mainly home based units but none of their units were in Ireland. Not much logic to it at all I'm afraid!

Totally agree...Regiments and Companies seem to have been disbanded and then reformed with some regularity, making it a bit of a headache trying to work out which units would have been in NI at any given time.

The only problem here would be that the 36th (Ulster) Division was disbanded in 1919 and never reformed, even during WW2. However one of its brigades (107th) was active until 2006 and present in Ireland. An oversized largely UDR infantry brigade or a brigade group padded out by a small number of army and TA regulars may have been more realistic.

Yep, valid point...either of those options would also work...

Cheers

[Dog 6]

"November 1 1997 The IRA sink the HMS Helford, HMS Blackwater, HMS Itchen, HMS Orwell, and HMS Spey moored HM Naval Base Clyde; with 106mm Cannons mounted on motorboats."


Anyone have any idea how many 106mm RR rounds it would take to sink each ship

[Legbreaker]

Anyone have any idea how many 106mm RR rounds it would take to sink each ship

Just one if placed in the right location. Of course finding that location might take numerous attempts.

As a rule though, I'd imagine holes above the waterline aren't going to do much good, and 106mm RCL aren't exactly all that effective through water....

[StainlessSteelCynic]

"November 1 1997 The IRA sink the HMS Helford, HMS Blackwater, HMS Itchen, HMS Orwell, and HMS Spey moored HM Naval Base Clyde; with 106mm Cannons mounted on motorboats."


Anyone have any idea how many 106mm RR rounds it would take to sink each ship

I think the other important issue is what kind of vessels were they If for example they were the small coastal minesweepers the British had during that period, they were wooden hull (or fibreglass I don't recall exactly).

Hmm, doing a quick check of the web, the Helford was a minehunter ship, unfortunately it was transferred to the Bangladeshi navy in 1994. The picture looks as though it has a metal hull but would it have the same level of armour as say a frigate The 106mm rounds were at least the equivalent of a 105mm tank round so they would have some ability to damage a ship.
It seems that at least half of the ships mentioned are minehunters and they are rather small

http://www.oldships.org.uk/SHIPS/SHIP_DETAILS/HELFORD_DETAIL.htm

http://www.oldships.org.uk/SHIPS/SHIP_DETAILS/BLACKWATER_DETAIL.htm

http://www.oldships.org.uk/SHIPS/SHIP_DETAILS/ITCHEN_DETAILS.htm

[Canadian Army]

River-Class

I did some checking the River-Class were built with a traditional steel hull to a design based on a commercial offshore support vessel. The class was designed to be operated as deep sea team sweepers, to combat the threat posed to submarines by Soviet deep-water buoyant moored mines codenamed "Cluster Bay".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_class_minesweeper

Here is picture from wikipedia of the HMS Orwell in the Bay of Biscay en route to Gibraltar, 1990

[Rainbow Six]

Also, HMNB Clyde is home to the Royal Navy's ballistic missile subs, so would be fairly heavily guarded by, amongst others, the Royal Marines' Commachio Group.

I'd have thought PIRA would be better off using any recoilless rifles they had against British vehicles in Ulster...I can't see any benefit to them in sinking five minesweepers in Scottish waters (other than as a propaganda coup perhaps).

Cheers

[Mohoender]

Wouldn't it be nicer to have them using divers as the Italians did in 1941 when they sunk the Queen Elisabeth and Valiant

[chico20854]

Also, HMNB Clyde is home to the Royal Navy's ballistic missile subs, so would be fairly heavily guarded by, amongst others, the Royal Marines' Commachio Group.

I'd have thought PIRA would be better off using any recoilless rifles they had against British vehicles in Ulster...I can't see any benefit to them in sinking five minesweepers in Scottish waters (other than as a propaganda coup perhaps).

Cheers

The wiki page on Commachio states by the late 80s it was over 400 strong. I can't really see PIRA getting 106mm RRs in place there. Now the Baltic and/or Northern Fleet Naval Spetsnaz Brigades are another story (SSBNs might be a priority for them), and they have access to all kinds of goodies, like AT-4 missiles.

Just saying...