Destruction of Weapons.

[fightingflamingo]

after WWII most of the ethnic Germans were deported from Pomerania & Silesia into the DDR and FRG by the Polish Peoples Republic, that is not to say all of them but the vast majority of them are gone. There was considerable support for the Polish Government in Exile however throughout the Cold War in Poland, although it maintained little relevancy.

On mixing brigades among NVA and Bundeswehr divisions, IMO this would not be done because of the strain it would place on logistics and maintenance units, since they start out as two seperate armies they have seperate logistical tails. IMHO they would continue to be fed by their prewar support formations, instead of mixing it up. At least for as long as that remains practical...

[Abbott Shaull]

One thing to keep in mind is that US divisions at peactime strength are larger than Soviet divisions of the same type, so that plays into the consumption rates. Soviet divisions have more tubes, but the US divisions (at least the mechanized ones) have the Artillery support vehicles and throw more rounds down range faster per mission, so that may balance out... US division have more support vehicles, in addition to the combat vehicles, plus an aviation brigade in every division so it's a no brainer that the fuel consumption would be higher...

The Soviet Division was about two-thirds the size of their US counterpart. In the version one, the Soviet Divisions that had 8000 men would be almost staffed to prewar Cat B levels.

One of the many things the Soviets had planned on was to strip it population all vehicles. This was to make all Motorized Rifle Division indeed Motorized, as well as to help bring supplies to the front. Many of the Cat C and almost all Mobilized Only Motorized Rifle Division had only one Regiment worth of equipment that the TO&Es called for. The other two Regiments would get what ever they could liberate. These Regiments would be basically glorified motorized light infantry. Many of these units would be used for occupational duty if things went correctly.

Just some thoughts.

[Abbott Shaull]

after WWII most of the ethnic Germans were deported from Pomerania & Silesia into the DDR and FRG by the Polish Peoples Republic, that is not to say all of them but the vast majority of them are gone. There was considerable support for the Polish Government in Exile however throughout the Cold War in Poland, although it maintained little relevancy.

On mixing brigades among NVA and Bundeswehr divisions, IMO this would not be done because of the strain it would place on logistics and maintenance units, since they start out as two seperate armies they have seperate logistical tails. IMHO they would continue to be fed by their prewar support formations, instead of mixing it up. At least for as long as that remains practical...

You quite correct that many Germans were moved willingly or by force, but like there are parts east of Poland that would traditionally be Polish, and there are location are some still living in those regions that would consider their family Polish.

As for the mixing, you are right. For the first year this would not happen, but after 1997 it would be done as thing started to break down. One has to remember when the East and West Germany were reunited in real life, any one above the rank of Major was let go from the who served in the East German Army as soon as possible. I am sure the same think would happen after 1997 in the original time line. Lot of these people would of be been killed during the first couple weeks/months due to close quarters with their former Soviet Allies. I am sure West German High Command would be installed as replacements. As for swaps this would be done after sometime in 1998 and beyond. By then there divisions from both sides were integrated into each German Corps. With the way supply lines were becoming a trickle at best it would be a way for each Division to be somewhat self sufficient in using capture supplies. By this time too logistical speaking it would be nightmare, since you find units with equipment from all major allies intermix by the very nature of the way the war was conducted, and how units seem to be able to 'find' needed equipment laying around when no one is looking....

It is also another way with unit conducting marauder raids. I can see some old East German raiding old rival West German unit and vise versa. With how the Germany was united in the canon of version 1 it leaves so many issue that the creator weren't able to resolve on what would actually happen, they left it as both sides were at shotgun wedding and the West German Command was the groom, and everyone lived happily ever after. Just looking at it realistically.

[Abbott Shaull]

Another advantage of intermixing the German units after 1998 would be also that for the former East German units they are fighting for their Homeland.

Another reason for integrating the units too is to show each side that they were now working as one Army.

Just some thought.

[fightingflamingo]

V1 suggests or states that the reunification of German was planned by the higher level staff's of both the East & West German Armies. We have to remember the historical anomosity between Germans and the Slavic people isn't something that the Nazi's invented for WWII, and we have to remember that it went both ways. IMHO, the treatment of WP troops(and more specifically the NVA) by the SU as canon fodder in China, may have had a racial/ethnic tone at the command level which pushed the NVA command into the arms of the west.

other than that, I think that there is largely agreement...

[Legbreaker]

I tend to agree that there will be friction between East and West German units, especially in the early stages. Up until the unification occured, only a small number of officers knew something was even happening, so it'd be no suprise if many of the lower ranks, and a few in the higher, took exception and caused a bit of trouble. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to imagine whole units defecting back to the Soviets (certainly make for an interesting story).

These defections might not have been widespread, but after several generations of propaganda on the part of their soviet "masters", ancient enmity might play less of a role than modern influences.

After a year or so of the war, these "defectors" might number less and less as they realise the west wasn't as evil as they were originally told.

[Abbott Shaull]

I agree whole heartedly .
Soldiers on all levels mismanage or slack on maintenance and gear gets worn out faster . Here is a thought - how many rounds is a certain gun barrel projected to take before its worn out / scatters like a shotgun Both arty and small arms have this problem - a problem compounded by poor maintenance and lack of parts and or lubricants.

I remember the instructors at our Academy saying that our (A)G3 rifles were good for app 7500 rounds before initial accuracy was reduced.After app double /triple that the gun would be deemed ready for the melting ovens.

Now bear in mind that firing on the practice range is included- a rifle will not be able to take more than a few years before worn out .

You know it amazing that the M16A1 we used in Basic training were even worthy of sighting...

[Abbott Shaull]

I tend to agree that there will be friction between East and West German units, especially in the early stages. Up until the unification occured, only a small number of officers knew something was even happening, so it'd be no suprise if many of the lower ranks, and a few in the higher, took exception and caused a bit of trouble. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to imagine whole units defecting back to the Soviets (certainly make for an interesting story).

These defections might not have been widespread, but after several generations of propaganda on the part of their soviet "masters", ancient enmity might play less of a role than modern influences.

After a year or so of the war, these "defectors" might number less and less as they realise the west wasn't as evil as they were originally told.

Yes, I do believe at the out set one would see certain units staying with the Pact. The thing is once the initial fighting happens, much like the US and UK Brigades that were based in Berlin, many of the East German units will be in the worse of the fighting. Even those units that didn't want to defect to the West, could be attacked out of hand by the Soviets just because other units of the East German had already acted hostile to Pact forces. I see any East German command and control assets that weren't destroyed before the US, UK, Canada and other allied unit came to the aid of the Germans, needing to be refit badly. Many of the East German Division would basically have to be rebuilt up and reorganized as well many West German Division.

At which time the NATO goes on the offensive in 1997, the Germans will be re-tasking Divisions with Brigades that were capable of taking on offensive abilities. I remember the 5th US Mechanized Division in the back story for the Black Madona module being attached to German Corps. The East German Divisions were at the start the war for all practical purposes organized similar to Soviet Division. I would think that the German High Command would of took time to re-organize the former East German Division more into line of those West regardless of the difference of equipment. Also the East German units would have to learn new tactics too.

One of the things that I always found lacking by GDW was the lack of back story of units of allies on both sides. I mean they did decent job with the Czeckaslavokia sort of, German sort of, Polish more so than the previous two, as well the US and Soviet Union. With the total lack of local Air Force(s) as well as the many security forces that may be encountered, and didn't mention much about Naval or River patrols much either. I know by 2000 many of these units were out of the picture, but they never fully explained how personnel was used.

Which is one of the reason why, some people go with the flow with canon while other work with what they believe would happen and throw everything else out.

Just some thoughts.

[Abbott Shaull]

As a matter of fact, I do remember reading somewhere in version 1. That not all East German units had defected to the West German. Some units were more active at the start, while other commanders simply choose to stay in their barracks, making their force sitting ducks, until the Soviet forced them to take action. I don't remember if this was in the Going Home module or in the original game set where I had read this.

Also I don't many of the Border Guard units would of defected to the West. These probably would of been the units the Soviet built up their German forces around. These forces were probably grounded out of existence as punishment for the bulk of the East German military defection to the West Germany.

One thing one has to remember the Soviets, didn't hold their Pact allies in high regard in how they would be re-equipped or brought up to strength. These units would get supplies, but as an after thought. They were to help pave the way so their units would have easier time. One just has to look at the Polish 7th() Marine Division and Polish 6th Airborne Division. Both of these units were very capable by all accounts in training. The Marine Division I believe was to be assigned to the Front that was to take Denmark, and as such was kept at near full strength. While the 6th due to action in the early 1980 where they didn't perform as they should during riots in and near Krakow where they reduced to little more than Brigade by the collapse of the Soviet Union.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I think it's worth stating that GDW didn't design Twilight to be about the units that survived WW3, it was about a small group of people (the player characters) surviving in the ruins of WW3. As such, there was no need for them to overly detail all the military units that survived because those units would have been either friendly, neutral or hostile to the PCs - they were part of the backdrop and not the main focus until the referee needed them to interact with the PCs. The PCs were always meant to be the main focus and the game was deliberately designed to give the players a fun world to game in.

[Legbreaker]

Well said Stainless.

But there is something fun about arguing back and forth on the bigger picture. :P

[jester]

I actualy wish there was more information on such units in the campaign. Why do you ask

More detail on East German or Polish Paras and other ELITE units so we can throw some bad a$$ enemies at the PCS! I am a firm beleiver in keeping the PCs afraid and even developing some lasting enemies that make them afraid, but also seeking revenge when they encounter them.

[Webstral]

I do think they must be flipped as IMO the Sovs would need more artillery munitions and the US would need more fuel.

Dunnigan's assumptions may be based on Soviet forces being on the attack and US forces being on the defensive. A Soviet tank division has more tanks, and while on a per-tank basis the Abrams is more of a fuel hog, the defender can sit with his engines off for longer (in a grossly overgeneralized sense). I'm not quite sure why US formations would be less consumptive of ammuntion, though. The Soviets planned massive bombardments. It could be that it was assumed that US guns would stay in action more continuously than their Soviet counterparts, given the superior ability of the US logistical system to keep ammunition moving to the big guns. On the other hand, all that movement of large-caliber ammunition would burn fuel, wouldn't it

Webstral

[copeab]

Dunnigan's assumptions may be based on Soviet forces being on the attack and US forces being on the defensive.

No, he breaks down fuel and ammo required for various situations (attack, defense, pursuit, etc) and I think in all cases the Soviets required more fuel and less ammo. A few pages before the table he notes that Soviet divisions tend to carry more fuel and ammo than NATO divisions since they expected more of a resupply problem.

[Targan]

I am a firm beleiver in keeping the PCs afraid and even developing some lasting enemies that make them afraid, but also seeking revenge when they encounter them.

My all time favourite two sessions in my last T2K campaign were when Major Po and his original small band of hard core killers snuck into Lublin, planted their tac nuke and, as they withdrew, were pursued by a Spetznaz group which had been hunting them for several months. The level of suspense was awesome, not least due to the knowledge by both sides that had they engaged in a final, pitched battle it would be brutal and absolutely no quarter would be given.

In the end the deciding factor was about 2.5 kilometers. That was how much closer to the nuke blast the Spetznaz were when it went off. Also the Spetznaz were in the open while Po's group were hiding in a ditch.