SOF in T2K

[fightingflamingo]

I think that by 2000-01 most of the surviving population would be relatively fit, albiet malnourished in some instances. I think the combination of the strikes, disease, and the collapse of infrastructure would have killed off most of those who were not fit. Diabetics and other sufferers of chronic illness would be dead. Because of the lack of antibiotics, many traumatic injuries would result in death, even with otherwise good medical care. Cancer is a long-term problem, but not immediately debilitating depending on the type.

Another think to consider is the baby boom you'd get when people run out of contraceptives and TV goes off the air... I think that although there may be a very high rate of birth defects, you'd still see a radical spike in the number of births per 1000 also as a result of the strikes, among the survivors. This won't play into the immediately available manpower, but does immediately address the need to find teachers (trained or otherwise), and the available manpower situation might be very different by 2010-15.

[jester]

I think that by 2000-01 most of the surviving population would be relatively fit, albiet malnourished in some instances. I think the combination of the strikes, disease, and the collapse of infrastructure would have killed off most of those who were not fit. Diabetics and other sufferers of chronic illness would be dead. Because of the lack of antibiotics, many traumatic injuries would result in death, even with otherwise good medical care. Cancer is a long-term problem, but not immediately debilitating depending on the type.

Another think to consider is the baby boom you'd get when people run out of contraceptives and TV goes off the air... I think that although there may be a very high rate of birth defects, you'd still see a radical spike in the number of births per 1000 also as a result of the strikes, among the survivors. This won't play into the immediately available manpower, but does immediately address the need to find teachers (trained or otherwise), and the available manpower situation might be very different by 2010-15.

However, the infanty mortality rate would also spike, as there would be less neonatal facilities, poorer died and exposure to all manner of nasties for the unborn. Also, a spike in women dying in childbirth as well again because of a lack in prewar treatments.

And the simple childhood maladies that we consider an incovienance now would return and be the killers they were 100+ years ago when a large number of children would not make it to 10 years of age due to disease and injury.

Also, the spike in childbirth, would there be The reproduction capacity of people under stress shuts down. Due to physical and emotional stress. So, people working hard labor, worried from say a nuclear strike and war all over, and with malnutrition. A little known fact, durring the great depression the birthrate for many nations dropped due to people afraid to start families because of fear of the unknown and economy. For the US it was the lowest birthrate ratio ever. So, it could actualy be in areas with few children. Also, couple it with the wouldbe parents exposuure to radiation, chemicals and other stuff that could make them sterile further reducing the populations ability to return to normal.

[bigehauser]

I think having a PSYOP guy or two would be a pretty interesting addition to a team, even if it was just an NPC.

[Abbott Shaull]

In US units, another thing to consider is that you will find a decent number of troops who are US troops, but are not actually Americans. This is because while anyone willing to take the oath can enlist in the US military, you cannot reenlist unless you are an American citizen. The military will then move heaven and earth to make the soldier and his immediate family US citizens. (As it should be, IMHO.)

In T2K, reenlistment will become irrelevant for this purpose, and you may find folks from various countries that are now higher ranks or even field-commissioned that are technically not American. Who knows what skills they might have

In the Going home it is how the get the Polish American Father able to come back to the US even though he was a Polish Citizen. It was something to do with his service he had give then unit to get them back to catch the boat.

[Targan]

I think having a PSYOP guy or two would be a pretty interesting addition to a team, even if it was just an NPC.

Hah! Shameless self promotion!

[bigehauser]

Shameless...lol

[Abbott Shaull]

Who'd be an American when they could be Australian



As far as I'm aware, there are tens of thousands of troops classified as "Spetznaz" while only a handful of those could truely be called elite in the same sense as the SAS, Commandos, SEALs, etc. I believe the term is more a reference to the unit's role than anything else.

Yeah that is true then again most Front Commander had Spetznaz Brigades, several independent Battalions, Companies, and the Platoon size units on par of the SAS Troops or Special Forces A-Teams. The quality of troops would be reflected on if it was Brigade, Battalion, or smaller. The Companies and smaller size units would be on par with what many Western nation would call Special Forces quality troops. While the Battalions and Brigades would be the next step down, and the Brigades would probably be on mix of Airborne/high speed Light Infantry/Ranger types. They have received more training than the average Soviet Paratrooper who themselves during the Cold War were conscripts for the most part.

The thing with the independent Battalions, Companies and smaller units they would be based with Cat B and Cat C units to help misled the unit true strength and to hide these units. Same thing was probably done Cat A units in Eastern Europe to hide some of the first special ops units that would of been inserted into West Germany. One of the thing in each Tank Army in the late 1980s the Soviets were trying to assign an Air Assault or Airmobile Brigade and in many of the MRD there was MRR, usually the wheeled based unit would also supplemented as Airmobile asset too.

[dragoon500ly]

As far as reservists being not as good as their Regular Army counterparts in their military capacity....

The finest Soviet Motor Rifle Regiment in the world happens to be the OPFOR at Fort Irwin, California (National Training Center). This unit does nothing but Soviet tactics for most of the year and has the well-earned reputation for regularing kicking the bejesus out of every visiting unit. The OPFOR is so seldom defeated that when it does happen, the rest of the Army litterly sets up and take notice...like when a National Guard pulled it off. I can still remember the utter shock of my unit's officers/NCOs that a Guard unit managed to pull off something that we hadn't been able to do....

Of course, my faith was restored when the next NG unit in rotation was gutted in proper fashion!

Still, whenever someone makes the claim that the Reserves just aren't as good as....

[bobcat]

during vietnam eery major deployable unit had their own organisational long rang recon units. this has been carried on into present though the name for such unit types has changed(its currently RSTA).

having been in a reconnaissance surveillance and target acquisition squadron myself it would not be unlikely that such units would continue to exist in the later stages of the twilight war. though im certain they would still be ignored as is characteristic of most brass.

[Eddie]

during vietnam eery major deployable unit had their own organisational long rang recon units. this has been carried on into present though the name for such unit types has changed(its currently RSTA).

RSTAs are Cavalry Squadrons, though, not Infantry. While things are similar, the modern evolution of LRRPs are the LRSCs. The most major difference from the Vietnam-era LRRPs is that these units are no longer under the direct control of the Infantry and Armor units they support, they now fall under the command of the Battlefield Surveillance Brigades. That's not to say there isn't overlap between a RSTA's role and what LRS does, but they have two completely different mindsets and MOS backgrounds as well as role. The RSTA supports the Brigade that it falls under, the LRSC/D supports higher level, deeper reconnaissance. In a Twilight setting, they'd still be a part of each major Division though existing as a separate entity.

Additionally, the OPFOR at the National Training Center have lost a lot of their conventional role and now play Militant Islamic insurgents almost exclusively. I went to the Captain's Career Course with a guy who was a platoon leader there and he said he had never done any of the Soviet-style stuff in his three years there. I'm sure it's still in the organizational memory somewhere, but the current Joes there haven't done much with it. Although that might change with all of the saber-rattling coming from Kimmy and Seoul...

[Rapparee]

Having served in both reserve and regular units, I'd have to say the best suited to a T2K situation would be the reservists.

I can see this type of unit almost being tailor made for some SF missions. Giving them a month or so of intensive military and fitness training might actually be quicker than training a military unit in all the technical skills they might need.

Of course in a purely combat sense I'd rather have the professionals who'd been training in nothing else for the past few years...

Just to back up that point, definetely!

My medical company, includes nurses, healthcare specialists, first-aid instructors and a couple of paramedics amongst its ranks. We also have a few mechanics, carpenters, the usual scattered amongst us! Myself, I'm a mere novice on the medical side, but I do alot of rock climbing and mountaineering in my spare time. Reading Boomer and Bears Den was quite cool to see abit of cold-weather info thrown in there! Winter mountaineering ftw! Its easy to see how a reserve unit have a wide smattering of skills and disciplines amongst their ranks.


Just on the note of the "shake and bake" Ranger school you were discussing. Its a class idea about units forming their own recondo teams like the Lurps in Vietnam. Would a system like this still be in effect up till 2000 I'm just curious because I've had players ask me to play SF types but was wondering whether I could just wave it off as the PC had been at the new type of Ranger School.

[Raellus]

Just on the note of the "shake and bake" Ranger school you were discussing. Its a class idea about units forming their own recondo teams like the Lurps in Vietnam. Would a system like this still be in effect up till 2000 I'm just curious because I've had players ask me to play SF types but was wondering whether I could just wave it off as the PC had been at the new type of Ranger School.

Short anwer is yes. Here's what I wrote earlier in the thread.

Here's an idea I think I presented on the old forum, and which may explain the relatively high proportion of "Ranger" characters that seem to populate the Twilight world.

Before '69 (IIRC), there were no separate Ranger regiments in the U.S. army. Instead, each division in the field (we're talking Vietnam here) was responsible for creating its own LRRP (long range reconaissance patrol) company. These LRRP companies were the precursors to modern Rangers and were designated as such in '69 (IIRC). Later, these companies were reorganized into the regiments still in existence today.

So, perhaps after '97 in the Twilight timeline, divisions in the field would create their own organic "Ranger" companies for LRRP'ing, prisoner snatches, ambushes, etc. This would make sense given the nature of warfare after the TDM. Perhaps each theatre would set up its own "Recondo" school to train these shake 'n' bake Rangers. In Twilight 2000 terms, "company" is a bit of a misnomer. Of course, by 2000, a company would probably be around pre-war TOE platoon strength.

Although this precedent/proposition applies to the U.S. (and Rangers, in particular), other countries could use a similar system.

With a war raging across the globe, I just don't see the quantity or quality of the remaining SOF being particularly high, c. 2000. Even at full Cold War strength, the SOFs of most nations would be stretched pretty thin once WWIII was in full swing.

For my Lions of Twilight write up, I had the 173rd Airborne BCT start a recondo school in Kenya so that all of its widely scattered battalions would have organic LRRP companies.

[helbent4]

I think having a PSYOP guy or two would be a pretty interesting addition to a team, even if it was just an NPC.

Eric,

For the most part, I agree. PSYOPS is useful for more than just stereotypical propaganda. For one thing, PSYOPS requires a deep understanding of the population and the enemy, allowing you to get inside their minds and influence their decisions in different ways. On the downside, most T2K games tend to be on the "run and gun" side, where it's hard to run the longer-term operations that are the most benefit. For another, most T2K groups tend to run roughshod over the locals due to many factors, despite their best intentions.

Getting back to reservists vs. reg force, I recall a few years back a reality show took soldiers from the US and Canada and attempted to recreate the training for the 1st SSF, the Devil's Brigade.

Training was as authentic in as many ways possible from equipment to the actual camp location in Montana. Both nationalities did relatively well, and it was eventually revealed that the American participants were all US Army regulars, while the Canadians were all militia (Reserve Force). One joked "they had to keep it even, somehow!". Purely anecdotal, of course! I don't recall how many militia vs. reg force actually made it all the way through the simulated training.

Tony

[bobcat]

Training was as authentic in as many ways possible from equipment to the actual camp location in Montana. Both nationalities did relatively well, and it was eventually revealed that the American participants were all US Army regulars, while the Canadians were all militia (Reserve Force). One joked "they had to keep it even, somehow!". Purely anecdotal, of course! I don't recall how many militia vs. reg force actually made it all the way through the simulated training.

Tony

sounds about right. after all yankee reservists are far crazier than anything i've ever seen. and they got the nontraditional skills to back it up.

recon out.

[helbent4]

sounds about right. after all yankee reservists are far crazier than anything i've ever seen. and they got the nontraditional skills to back it up.

recon out.

Bob,

In this case it was Canadian reservists and American regulars. In theory they weren't competing but cooperating to make it through training and then in mock commando operations after. The joke was that this was to keep things "even" between the two countries.

Tony