5th US Army 1999 Offensive

[kato13]

Webstral 11-25-2003, 03:13 AM Doee anyone have any detailed information on the 1999 counteroffensive by 5th US Army I've looked at Red Star, Lone Star and the US Army Vehicle Guide. The best I have come up with is that the component units of 5th US Army were in action in Texas by late 1998. 85th ID was mauled by the Texian National Legion in January, while the 49th AD and other divisions suffered heavy losses in a failed campaign at some point during the year.


I'm speculating that the Joint Chiefs would want to fight in Texas either when the weather supports operations. I would guess that this would mean March-May and September-November. Attacking earlier in the year would mean bringing in more harvests. And naturally it would be better to get control of the oil fields earlier in the year rather than later. But this is all speculation at the moment. Has a Challenge article ever addressed the issue


Webstral

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Matt Wiser 11-25-2003, 03:27 PM None to my knowledge, and I've got them all, just about. There may have been some planned, but never published when GDW went bye-bye.

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[Olefin]

Never saw much detail on it myself - the 49th must have done a heck of a lot of damage before it got stopped - if you look at the Mexican Army composition by 2000 they had almost no AFV's left - and the Soviet force took a big hit too - and they would have been pretty well equipped with M60 tanks as they hadnt seen any combat at the time - they didnt get the Stingray tanks till after the losses they took in 1998 not before (US Army Vehicle Guide

Also the 85th must have been pretty badly led - they didnt have any armor with them but they did have some artillery - and the Texian's arent portrayed as having any armor - so to get wiped out that bad by guys armed with small arms only means they must not have had any veterans at all in their officer and Non-com ranks

whats interesting is that Lone Star makes it clear that the furthest north the Mexicans are deployed is Waco, with most of them to the south of that, the Soviets are all the way to the south in San Antonio and not very mobile and the Legion is mostly around Houston and areas east and north of it - so why are the US forces pulled all the way back to Oklahoma

Most of northern and western Texas seems to not have Mexicans or Soviets in it - so why give up so much of Texas when Lone Star makes it clear that the governor of Texas is at Wichita Falls, still inside the state Why would the 49th, a Texas National Guard unit, not have at least some troops with him

[kato13]

Moved from archive.

[Olefin]

One thing I was thinking about as I wrote that the Texian Legion had no armor - has anyone read the Texas Israeli War 1999 In that book Texas declares independence during WWIII and uses a lot of museum armor and some seized from national guard depots to fight the US after years of war have weakened the US Army.

Now here the National Guard was fully in the field so I doubt they got any armor there. But old museum and collector tanks could be plausible - and could explain the defeat of the 85th.

They may not have been equipped with much in the way of anti-tank weapons since they were a state side reservist unit - and even a small force of Stuarts and Shermans could have really changed the dynamic of the battle against the 85th. Especially if motor transport was short and the 85th was a foot infantry unit.

Always wondered if any of the GDW designers read that book - it came out in 1974 and some of the ideas from it - like the Sons of the Alamo (read Texian Legion), an invasion of Alaska (in this case by China), US forces having almost no armor left and what they are using being full of old equipment, and a split in the US government (there seen as the Vice President doing a coup against the President and his supporters and the President's being in opposition to each other, although covertly) - sound very much like what went into the Twilight War

[kalos72]

Texian Legion always had me perplexed but after reading the Iron Triangle works and the KKK forces and such it made me cringe.

I have yet to tackle the Texian Legion in detail in my campaign...its so vague and empty its going to require alot of work to detail out.

[Olefin]

I did find one thing that historically GDW didnt have but could be used as a point in "reality" where the Texians could have got armor from

The Texas Armed Forces museum is at Austin, Texas, at Camp Mabry - it started to collect historical armored vehicles in the very early 90's - those vehicles could be the basis for armor for the Texian Legion and thus part of how they beat the unarmored forces of the 85th Division

[kalos72]

Well that leads to one of my all time issues...how did the US go through 7000 M1 tanks, not including anything produced during the war.

Surely there had to be some stock in the US even if naval transport was limited...

Not sure that issue has a resolution honestly...

[Olefin]

Keep in mind that the game was written right about the time the Lima Tank Plant was going to 120 tanks per month - in other words they most likely had the old tank production rate of 30 tanks per month in mind when they did the game - they may have had no idea that eventually the US Army would field over 7000 of the M1, M1A1 and M1A2 tanks - thats why you still see the M60 in some units where in the real world by 1995 the M1 was basically in service in both the regular military and the Guard

Thus they had the US military less equipped in terms of armor than they would have been in a real world Cold War never ends situation by 1995 - especially with how the US would have ramped up tank production with the start of the war in China.

[kalos72]

Perhaps the Red River Depot could be worked into why Texian Legion seems to be so strong

[Olefin]

if they have control of the Depot that would add a lot of weaponry to their arsenal - course that depends on how far the Mexicans got - if the Army withdrew from there it would leave a lot of material behind - just too much to move

[kalos72]

That makes sense...the 5th Army is too busy with the Mexican/Soviet advance and some "local patriots" make a power play for the Depot.

Side note: Where do they make Bradley's or HMMWV's anyways Maybe another Texas resource...

I assume Lima was the only Abrams plant... M60's

[Olefin]

Bradleys are made in York PA - there is reset work at the Red River Plant but its mostly for parts for the Bradley not whole vehicles - for instance we got tracks and weapons from there along with other parts that were refurbished at the depot

Lima is the only US tank plant now - but remember that you would have the AGS being made at the York United Defence Plant and the Cadillac Gage facilities making the Stingray during the war as well

[James1978]

Bradleys are made in York PA - there is reset work at the Red River Plant but its mostly for parts for the Bradley not whole vehicles - for instance we got tracks and weapons from there along with other parts that were refurbished at the depot

I thought the San Jose plant was the sole source of Bradleys prior to its closure

Lima is the only US tank plant now - but remember that you would have the AGS being made at the York United Defence Plant and the Cadillac Gage facilities making the Stingray during the war as well

Don't forget the Detroit Army Tank Plant.

[James1978]

That makes sense...the 5th Army is too busy with the Mexican/Soviet advance and some "local patriots" make a power play for the Depot.

Side note: Where do they make Bradley's or HMMWV's anyways Maybe another Texas resource...

I assume Lima was the only Abrams plant... M60's

M1s were built at both Lima and Detroit.

HMMWVs are built in Mishawaka, Indiana.

[James1978]

Well that leads to one of my all time issues...how did the US go through 7000 M1 tanks, not including anything produced during the war.

Surely there had to be some stock in the US even if naval transport was limited...

Not sure that issue has a resolution honestly...

I recall the DC Group taking a crack at that question - see this post. Fightingflamingo worked up a pretty detailed spreadsheet.