Aliens - 1986 movie (was Dog Soldiers)

[Legbreaker]

I don't believe it. 24 hours ago there's no way in hell I'd have thought it even remotely possible, but it's true.

I'm GMing an Aliens game this week end, f2f with at least 5 players, all willing, able and ready to go toe to toe with those lovable acid for blood critters who only want to be our friends!

Excited Who me

[Ramjam]

Right I'm being a right idiot today.

Has anyone got the link to the DC Working Group. Because for the life of me I all I can find is dead links when I google it.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I love me some Aliens but it's got plot-holes big enough to drive a Conestoga class cruiser through.

1 - why in the hell did they all bunch up in the atmo. processor Why did they not go by bounding advance for crying out loud Hicks sees the acid damage and says straight up "looks like they bagged one of Ripley's bad guys in here". They KNOW what they're in for!

2 - The Colonial Marines Technical Manual tells us the aforementioned Conestoga class can carry "up to 90 passengers and crew, with as many as 2000 more [hypersleep chambers] in the cargo bays". Aaaand twelve marines and one APC went WTF That's like sending an Arleigh Burke class missile frigate out with a bridge crew and four marines. I just can't see how/why that would be done.

3 - the never-ending question of how/why the facehugger eggs got on in the first place, which triggered 3. The eggs are only activated by the presence of someone leaning close to them. The queen tore loose from the ovipositor, and even if she'd "laid" them in the landing strut well of the dropship, how'd the facehuggers hatch and find Ripley.

4 - Really, guys EVERYBODY leaves the ship When Burke has absolutely established that the critters are on the ground Irrespective of his actual motives, he tells Ripley when she says "We're going to wipe them out, not bring back, not study, right" "That's the plan." - she briefed Gorman on the danger of these things, Burke (acting as the good friend) obviously backed her - but everybody came down. WTF

I love Aliens, don't get me wrong, but there's a lot of practical problems with the movie.

[copeab]

2 - The Colonial Marines Technical Manual tells us the aforementioned Conestoga class can carry "up to 90 passengers and crew, with as many as 2000 more [hypersleep chambers] in the cargo bays". Aaaand twelve marines and one APC went WTF That's like sending an Arleigh Burke class missile frigate out with a bridge crew and four marines. I just can't see how/why that would be done.

I see this as further manipulation of the situation by Burke -- presented as not wasting money to the Corporation and not wasting resources to the Colonial Marines.

4 - Really, guys EVERYBODY leaves the ship When Burke has absolutely established that the critters are on the ground Irrespective of his actual motives, he tells Ripley when she says "We're going to wipe them out, not bring back, not study, right" "That's the plan." - she briefed Gorman on the danger of these things, Burke (acting as the good friend) obviously backed her - but everybody came down. WTF

The dropship, the cruiser, or both

[Webstral]

Ill preface my response to the oeholes in the Aliens plot by expressing an idea I failed to get across during the discussion about The Hurt Locker. Fiction is not a documentary. Aliens is a Vietnam film until the surviving Marines escape from the atmosphere processor, but its not a Vitenam documentary (obviously). As with all literature, events and characters are meant to stand for something and somebody. Im sure weve all seen the disclaimer at the end of a film claiming that similarities between the characters and events of the film and real people and events are entirely coincidental. Although the primary motivator for putting said advisory at the end of the film is to forestall tort suits, there is a literary idea that one story stands for many; therefore, none of the characters are supposed to be exactly like real people because the characters are supposed to represent archetypes. Why archetypes So the audiences ability to see something recognizable and be drawn in thereby is maximized. This is good art, and its good marketing.

The answer to questions 1, 2, and 4 is hubris, combined with a power structure that puts people with little experience or little common sense in positions of power. It might not have made sense in a vacuum for everyone to go into the atmosphere processor, for a tiny fraction of the potential crew of the transport to go on the mission, or for everyone to go to the surface. One of the main themes of the film, though, is that in a hierarchy decisions get made at every level according to the viewpoints and needs of the people at that level. By the time all of these decisions reach the people on the ground, the effect borders on insanity. This was true in Vietnam, and it has been true in Iraq. Id put my left testicle on the table that its true in Afghanistan, too.

The Company doesnt believe theres a real problem on LV426. The scene in which Ripley tries to defend her actions before a Company board of inquiry spells out of the Companys attitudes very effectively. They dont believe her story. They dont want to believe her story. They think they have a good grip on things. Later, we find out that Burke has sent the colonists to look for the original crashed ship on his own initiative. Therefore, when Burke says that the loss of communication with the colony on LV426 could be a result of a oedowned transmitter, hes expressing the viewpoint of the appropriate officials at the Company. One is forced to wonder whether Ripleys inclusion in the mission is entirely the doing of some quick talking on the part of Burke, who is trying to cover his fourth point of contact in the event his little venture went sour.

Lets suppose, then, that the Marines get sent out on the Companys behalf. The Company doesnt believe in the Aliens. The Company is checking off a standard procedure box. This attitude is transmitted to the government, who send a bare-bones mission to check their own box. People cost money, so a very small force under a butterbar gets sent. Before we say oeThats crazy! That would never happen! let us think of a few of the decisions that were made in Iraq and Afghanistan that were based on keeping costs down, supporting other priorities, or just plain oversight. We sent 130,000 to Iraq instead of 350,000, and we got rid of the Army and the police. There was no centralized effort to train a new Afghan police force until Obama was elected. I wont belabor the point.

Keeping with the Vietnam theme, units in Vietnam were woefully understrength. The small size of the force sent to LV426 is a reference to the inadequacy of the available manpower. We should remember that Aliens is fiction, not a documentary. The small size of the command that hits the ground is symbolic of the shortage of manpower in rifle platoons and companies in Vietnam.

Similarly, the fact that a mission like this is placed under the command of someone so junior is a condemnation of the power structure of the armed forces and the class consciousness of the military. Gorman has forty some-odd simulated missions, but the drop on LV426 is his second live drop. Its good that hes been trained, but its awful that a man with so little real world experience is put in charge of anything like this. However, we have a good idea how important the Marines think this mission is based on who they put in charge. Again, the specter of Vietnam rears its ugly head. I dont know enough about the training and experience of USMC lieutenants in Vietnam, but I know the Army lieutenants were not what was needed. Still, an officer has to be in charge, so lets scrape one off the bottom of the barrel and give him a token force so we can check the box on this little sidebar matter at LV426.

The short-handedness of the mission explains why everybody comes down. There isnt anybody to leave upstairs. Moreover, as we have seen its not strictly necessary to leave someone up top. The approach of the Marines to the atmosphere processor can be explained by the presence of the newbie lieutenant. This is the same guy who had all of the ammunition collected before sending his people into the lions den. Utter foolishness, but understandable foolishness given the discovery regarding the heat exchangers. Gormans a great character in that we can very easily see and understand the conflicting forces at work in him.

Im not going to defend or even address the presence of the facehuggers that lead to #3. Thats another story for another time.

Honestly, I dont see any of the oeholes mentioned as holes. People in their various functions and capacities make decisions based on their perceptions of reality. Everyone down the chain has to live with these decisions. I witnessed insane monkey-ass bullshit daily in Iraq. Everyone from the President on downward made decisions and created policy that drove a reality on the ground that we all felt was markedly deficient. If I had to review my own journal, Adagio for Strings, I would say that as a work of fiction it ranks below anything done by Tom Clancy or Harold Coyle because the levels of stupidity, insanity, and ineptitude are too great to be borne by suspension of disbelief. Aliens gives us the tools we need to understand why the characters who dont have any dialogue in the film make the decisions that lead to the material we see on the screen. Were supposed to say oeWTF because thats the human experience at war.

[Legbreaker]

Another point is that the Colonial Marines Technical Manual was written well, well after the movie by a fairly talented and motivated fan. It's a damn fine publication, but in no way is it the movie.
For all we know, the Sulaco only held a single platoon worth of marines, one half of which was deleted for the mission to allow carriage of Ripley and Burke, which would explain why there was a spare dropship aboard.
If the ship was big enough to carry thousands of troops, would the marines really have had to carry out all the pre-mission checks and loading themselves, or would there have been specialists available as you might see on an aircraft carrier
The size of the mess hall we see in the early stages of the movie is also an indication of the limited size and carrying capacity of the Sulaco.

Now, as for the bunching in the atmosphere processor, it's human nature to group together like that in unfamiliar situations. Totally against tactical common sense, true, but those were also some very tight areas. My guess is that if they'd spread out it may have actually worked against them given the aliens could have picked them off one by one at their leisure.

The 3 eggs on the dropship is something I don't buy either. The whole 3rd movie was a disappointment as far as I'm concerned. Sure there were some nice highlights, but the overall concept and storyline just didn't' hang together for me.
I had the opportunity to read the original draft for the 3rd movie a couple of years back - COMPLETELY different. Set on a space station, Ripely was injured early on and in a coma most of the duration, Hicks lives and becomes the hero and I can't remember what happened to Newt (survived I think). Bishop also got a run as well, but again I can't remember details. Ends in an evac of the station by a handful of survivors.
Some of the ideas were a bit dodgy, but as it was only a first draft....

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Another point is that the Colonial Marines Technical Manual was written well, well after the movie by a fairly talented and motivated fan. It's a damn fine publication, but in no way is it the movie.
For all we know, the Sulaco only held a single platoon worth of marines, one half of which was deleted for the mission to allow carriage of Ripley and Burke, which would explain why there was a spare dropship aboard.
If the ship was big enough to carry thousands of troops, would the marines really have had to carry out all the pre-mission checks and loading themselves, or would there have been specialists available as you might see on an aircraft carrier
The size of the mess hall we see in the early stages of the movie is also an indication of the limited size and carrying capacity of the Sulaco.

Well I think the +2000 is indicative of an emergency situation - kind of like how you could in a pinch put 10000 people on an aircraft carrier. But with that said, all we have to go on is the CMTM. Nothing else. Who's to say there weren't squad messes, or that with the short compliment, they reconvened in a smaller nominal officers' mess However, the presence of two dropships is a bit more compelling, although I still think it's kind of wonky to have a huge ship with only fourteen Marines on board: Hicks, Hudson, Vasquez, Dietrich, Apone, Wierzbaski, Frost, Ferro, Spunkmeyer, Crowe, Gorman, Bishop, then Ripley and Burke taking a berth themselves.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not putting my foot down and saying "No I'm right, you're all wrong"...I just think that James Cameron is a better storyteller than student of things military

Now, as for the bunching in the atmosphere processor, it's human nature to group together like that in unfamiliar situations. Totally against tactical common sense, true, but those were also some very tight areas. My guess is that if they'd spread out it may have actually worked against them given the aliens could have picked them off one by one at their leisure.

(Actually having played the Atmo. processing maps in coop Aliens v. Predator - the original from Rebellion Studios that came out for the PC in like '98 or so - this is actually kind of true...)


The 3 eggs on the dropship is something I don't buy either. The whole 3rd movie was a disappointment as far as I'm concerned. Sure there were some nice highlights, but the overall concept and storyline just didn't' hang together for me.
I had the opportunity to read the original draft for the 3rd movie a couple of years back - COMPLETELY different. Set on a space station, Ripely was injured early on and in a coma most of the duration, Hicks lives and becomes the hero and I can't remember what happened to Newt (survived I think). Bishop also got a run as well, but again I can't remember details. Ends in an evac of the station by a handful of survivors.
Some of the ideas were a bit dodgy, but as it was only a first draft....[/QUOTE]

Yeah, that was cyberpunk author William Gibson's treatment of an Alien3 draft. His take was that VERY early on, Ripley is injured by trigger happy Chinese soldiers who board the Sulaco when it, on autopilot, drifts into Chinese "space". They find Bishop and IIRC the inside of his hypersleep chamber is described as being like a terrarium - beaded with water and steam. As soon as they crack it open, its revealed an egg had developed in there (the how and why is explained later) and it is taken off. The Chinese rebuild Bishop, Ripley (comatose due to the weapons fire) is put in the infirmary, Newt is stuck in an office somewhere and Hicks bands together with some less-than-communistically-correct soldiers to rescue her once it comes clear that due to some around-fucking by Chinese scientists the Xenomorphs can now reproduce by virus. If you get the Alien "goo" on you, you'll turn in to one.

[Legbreaker]

That draft was a bit out there, but still more believable than what ended up running with!

[Webstral]

Don't get me wrong - I'm not putting my foot down and saying "No I'm right, you're all wrong"...I just think that James Cameron is a better storyteller than student of things military

Most storytellers fit this description. Dale Dye has a made decent money closing the gap.

[Targan]

I don't believe it. 24 hours ago there's no way in hell I'd have thought it even remotely possible, but it's true.

I'm GMing an Aliens game this week end, f2f with at least 5 players, all willing, able and ready to go toe to toe with those lovable acid for blood critters who only want to be our friends!

Excited Who me

I'm. So. Damned. Jealous. If I hadn't just got the news that I've been given a double promotion at work after 10 months in the job I'd take some snap leave and fly to Tassie this weekend! Nice work Leg. I'll be there in spirit.

[Raellus]

Yeah, that was cyberpunk author William Gibson's treatment of an Alien3 draft. His take was that VERY early on, Ripley is injured by trigger happy Chinese soldiers who board the Sulaco when it, on autopilot, drifts into Chinese "space". They find Bishop and IIRC the inside of his hypersleep chamber is described as being like a terrarium - beaded with water and steam. As soon as they crack it open, its revealed an egg had developed in there (the how and why is explained later) and it is taken off. The Chinese rebuild Bishop, Ripley (comatose due to the weapons fire) is put in the infirmary, Newt is stuck in an office somewhere and Hicks bands together with some less-than-communistically-correct soldiers to rescue her once it comes clear that due to some around-fucking by Chinese scientists the Xenomorphs can now reproduce by virus. If you get the Alien "goo" on you, you'll turn in to one.

I've watched Aliens @ least 50 times and Gibson's Sprawl Trilogy is probably my favorite Sci-Fi work ever. The idea of a Gibson-penned Aliens sequel (instead of the disappointing one that ended up getting made) is mind-blowingly awesome. I've never read/heard about this before Why didn't it go through

[Targan]

The Sulaco and it's sister vessels were probably pretty modular in their loadout. Maybe they can carry 2000 people in hypersleep if the entire drop ship bay and cargo areas are filled with hypersleep pods

I think most of the blame for the feeble size of the force sent to LV426 can be laid on Burke. He and Weyland-Yutani Corporation clearly have enormous political and military influence. It was in their best interests to have a small team sent as it would be easier for Burke to manipulate the situation to his and WYC's advantage. Same reason that Gorman was assigned mission commander.

[Raellus]

My interpretation of many of the holes in the Aliens film is that a lot of it was intentional. I think the movie is as much a commentary on the power of multi-national corporations as it is on the military mismanagement that led to our defeat in Vietnam. The company set the whole thing up. The corporation likely paid for the expedition so such a small force was justified to the military on the basis of cost. The company aslo wanted maximum control on the ground so they made sure an inexperienced officer (likely with poor marks from whatever academy produces Colonial Marine officers) in charge. Heck, the company may even have had a hand in choosing the "platoon" that was sent- they seemed to have their share of screw ups. I suppose the corporate influence on the military theme could have also been a commentary on the Vietnam situation as well.

On a sidenote, I believe Ripley is one of the most positive female role models in all of film- her and Clarice Starling- and I'd like my daughter to see the film. Unfrotunately, my wife doesn't see this my way. I'm not sure what her problem is. SThe wife's not really a fan of either Aliens or Silence of the Lambs. It's either that or the fact that my daughter's only 4...

[Legbreaker]

I'm. So. Damned. Jealous. If I hadn't just got the news that I've been given a double promotion at work after 10 months in the job I'd take some snap leave and fly to Tassie this weekend! Nice work Leg. I'll be there in spirit.

You know what's even better
It's show day here (well, actually Thursday to Saturday) and one of the players is coming straight from there still dressed in his Star Wars storm trooper armour.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

The Sulaco and it's sister vessels were probably pretty modular in their loadout. Maybe they can carry 2000 people in hypersleep if the entire drop ship bay and cargo areas are filled with hypersleep pods

That's the implication in the CMTM: that the 2000 will fill cargo/flight bays, but it can be done (they also imply that the ship's powerplant can run an additional 2000; I'd imagine that this load-out would be strictly for evacuation of a colony or post-war troop return).

I think most of the blame for the feeble size of the force sent to LV426 can be laid on Burke. He and Weyland-Yutani Corporation clearly have enormous political and military influence. It was in their best interests to have a small team sent as it would be easier for Burke to manipulate the situation to his and WYC's advantage. Same reason that Gorman was assigned mission commander.