Poll - Favorite Assault Rifle

[bobcat]

M16A2 for my PC. does the job good enough, plenty of parts around if i gotta fix it, and its looks "poge" enough that the commies just might let me pass(hey i can hope)

[Zaskar24]

I voted other even though the M16 family is the AR that I am the most familiar with. For the other I would go with the H&K G41 as its design goes back to the G3 thru the 33 to it. Uses STANAG mags and can mount NATO optics as well as the H&K claw mount ones. Plus the folding stock version is pretty compact making it ideal for mounted troops.

[Raellus]

Eventually, though, I think we will skip over caseless ammunition and replace them with ETC for rifles and heavier weapons, and retain the cased ammo for pistols. (Don't hold your breath for an ETC rifle, though -- I think those will be something my nephew's grandchildren will have rather than any time soon.).

I recently read that one of the several reasons the G11 was not adopted by the German and U.S. armies is that caseless ammo has a potential issue with cooking off in the gun. If I understand correctly, conventional ammo helps with heat loss because the brass from spent rounds retains and takes some of the heat of discharge with it when it's ejected from the gun. Caseless ammo doesn't have this beneficial property. The gun, therefore, retains a lot of heat and this can, theoretically at least, lead some of the unfired caseless ammo to cook off in the gun. This could be catastrophic.

[Panther Al]

I think the sheer amount of 5.56 NATO, 7.62mm NATO, 7.62/5.45mm Kalashnikov, and 7.62mm Nagant cartridges in the world and the companies set up to manufacture them will make their replacement difficult and a long time in coming.

Oh I agree- the inertia that these rounds have is immense which makes the idea of rechambering the ar series a non-starter (even though the ar lends itself to it). If there is ever going to be change from the 5.56 to the 6.8 it would have to be because of the wholesale replacement of the ar series as a whole, something that won't happen soon.

Though if it did I can easily see the brits coughing politely as we swap to a .270 round and saying "We told you so..."

[bobcat]

I recently read that one of the several reasons the G11 was not adopted by the German and U.S. armies is that caseless ammo has a potential issue with cooking off in the gun. If I understand correctly, conventional ammo helps with heat loss because the brass from spent rounds retains and takes some of the heat of discharge with it when it's ejected from the gun. Caseless ammo doesn't have this beneficial property. The gun, therefore, retains a lot of heat and this can, theoretically at least, lead some of the unfired caseless ammo to cook off in the gun. This could be catastrophic.

from my research that issue was solved about 2 years prior to the project being scrubbed. the solution was in three parts IIRC changing the formula for the ammo to be more heat tolerant, improving the barrels heat dissipating capability, and i believe a mechanical safety to prevent a cook-off from chambering more rounds.

[Panther Al]

Well, I appear to have spoken a bit too soon:

Jordan has decided to license build 6.8spc LWRC rifles for their royal guard, true, they say only 5000 for now, but since they have the facility to make more, I wouldn't be surprised if a few years down the road the rest of the Jordanian Army goes down the 6.8 road.

[waiting4something]

I don't see why the 6.8 is such a big deal The round is really only made for close fighting. It's like a American made version of the 7.62x39mm. 6.8 is more a specialty round then a jack of all trades. The bullets are heavier and from what I have seen magazine capacity gets reduced also. Not dogging it, but it just seems lake a bad chose to have if you have to fight outside a built up area.

[Panther Al]

Um, yes and no. The whole 5.56 vs 6.5 vs 6.8 is half fact and half hyperbole. They each have strengths and weaknesses over each other. 5.56 doesn't hit as hard as some (including me who has used it as it was meant) but you can carry a lot of it easily. The 6.5 has the range - and the hitting power at range - that has to seen to believed, but is expensive and is optimised for long distance work (and admittedly its damn good at it). The 6.8 hits much harder than the 5.56, somewhat harder than the 6.8 under 400m, and is about the same at 400m+ as the 5.56 in accuracy and hitting power, all of which I am fine with. Downside is as mentioned, ammo capacity of a 30rd mag drops to 25. I personally don't have a problem with that. You can always have built 30rd versions that won't be much bigger so you can still use most ammo pouches out there, but I'll agree the roughly 40% increase in weight compared to 5.56 does suck.

But with harder hitting bullets you won't have to use as many (not that joe won't anyways, joe being joe) to get the same results.

As to the 6.5, if I wanted a sniper round, it would be at least a 7.62.

Or you could look at it this way:
The 5.56 was designed by varmint shooters to shoot varmints.
The 6.5 was designed by game hunters to take down game with a AR platform.
The 6.8 was designed by soldiers to kill other soldiers with the same AR platform.

[Tackleberry]

5.56, 6.5 or 6.8 doesn't really matter if your only driving it down an 11 inch barrel.

L85A1, heavy, unreliable but for front line troops came as standard with a 4x SUSAT.
L85A2, Heavy, very reliable and still has an optic on it.

21" barrel gives enough velocity to an SS109 round to penetrate CRISAT armour at 450m and still has enough punch to do some damage.

I can't hit a bus at 200m with an AK, but I can hit a man sized target at 600m with an L85.

Forget the L86 though, not worth the extra barrel length.

[HorseSoldier]

I can't hit a bus at 200m with an AK, but I can hit a man sized target at 600m with an L85.

AK's aren't great, but they're not that bad. If properly zeroed both the 47 and 74 are easily 200 meter guns (meaning minute-of-man with no problems), though that's maybe about the limits of it.

[Panther Al]

AK's aren't great, but they're not that bad. If properly zeroed both the 47 and 74 are easily 200 meter guns (meaning minute-of-man with no problems), though that's maybe about the limits of it.

And it does matter when and where they was made. Had the chance years ago to shoot a ton of them, and it was found that the East German ones was on the whole a lot more accurate, a lot further out. Had one, that while the sights was crap, when fired locked down in place, was placing MOA groups at 400. It became a keeper - though I never did get the chance to rework it to its true potential.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

And it does matter when and where they was made. Had the chance years ago to shoot a ton of them, and it was found that the East German ones was on the whole a lot more accurate, a lot further out. Had one, that while the sights was crap, when fired locked down in place, was placing MOA groups at 400. It became a keeper - though I never did get the chance to rework it to its true potential.

I've heard similar stories, some of the East European AKs were better made than the Soviet and non-Euro nations but the East German models were considered the best of the lot.

[HorseSoldier]

We had brand new MPiK-74Ns in our arms room for foreign weapons training/familiarization, and they were awfully well put together for AKs (fit/finish better than the Polish AKMs and Bulgarian AR-M1s and RPK-74s we also had . . . and we won't even talk about the stack of Century Arms imported Romanian AKs we also had). Main issue I had with them was that folding stock is just ridiculously short, even for combat marksmanship sort of shooting. (Have heard that the Poles, who used the same stock, universally despised it on their version of the 74 as well.)



Raises the interesting idea of Warsaw Pact troops feeling that there were better and worse (or cooler/less cool) versions of the AK. With almost everyone in the front line states running some sort of AK-74, I wonder if you'd get East German AKs being prized trophies among Soviet troops, or Poles ditching their weapons for Soviet 74s any chance they got, etc. (And of course the AKSU would be extremely coveted I'm sure . . .)

[Cpl. Kalkwarf]

Hmm My Arsenal SG-31 5.45 (ak 74) is a great shooter. Its a 1-2is moa shooter with standard surpluss ammo. (closer to 2 then one). Thats better then minute of man. The 5.45 is more of a 300-400+ rifle I would think. The 7.62x39 is more of the 100-200ish rifle.

I think Ill go for the ak74 for my characters. In Europe/pact countries as ammo might be easier to come by.

[Sanjuro]

I went with the L85 (with a preference in post-apoc scenarios for the L1A1) for exactly the reasons Rainbow Six did; familiarity, with the added factor of tending to play British pcs.
I like the bullpup idea for the ability to carry a weapon with a full length barrel, that doesn't take up too much space in an APC. The clever 3-part sling was sheer genius- whether you're carrying something that needs both hands, or digging a trench, or relieving yourself behind a tree, the rifle stays eady for use and can be swung into firing position immediately.
The BIG downside is the inability to fire around the left hand side of buildings without exposing yourself to enemy fire- for that I almost went for the Steyr AUG, but I wondered about availability. Likewise for the Galil- I'll have to carry a bottle opener!