Weapon choice for women.

[kato13]

I know many gaming system rules treat men and women as equivalent, but I am trying to come up with the most logical pistol, smg and assault rifle for an above average strength but average build woman. I am guessing recoil and grip size would be the biggest concerns.

This is really more for my morrow project, but this forum gets more traction and it is probably applicable.

Even though I have logistical considerations I would rather not have them effect any comments here as I may start with a clean slate on weapons.

[copeab]

I know many gaming system rules treat men and women as equivalent, but I am trying to come up with the most logical pistol, smg and assault rifle for an above average strength but average build woman. I am guessing recoil and grip size would be the biggest concerns.

Probably any 9mm pistol or smg would be usable, as well as any 5.56mm rifle.

This really comes down to familiarity and mass. Fewer women than men are aught how to properly use a firearm, so don't hold it correctly. This increases effective recoil. Given sufficient training, a given weapon won't recoil worse for a 150-lb woman than a 150-lb man.

[Cdnwolf]

I am SOOOO not going to reply to this thread...lololol.

[Legbreaker]

With regard to pistols, I heard somewhere that a larger, heavier weapon is usually better for women than light "plinking" pistols due to the greater mass - the weapon absorbs more of the recoil than a small frame.

Of course they still need to be able to wrap their hands around it in the first place....

[pmulcahy11b]

I am SOOOO not going to reply to this thread...lololol.

I'm not either -- I've seen too many women who are just as capable with military weapons as men. (Damn, I just replied.)

[weswood]

Well....my sister did NOT like my M1911A1, but she kicks but with my little .380 It's an old Spanish made Llama, built jus like a scaled down M1911.

[kato13]

I'm honestly don't think I'm being sexist I'm being realistic. Women are smaller and less strong than men on average. That is simple biology. If you choose common armaments to accommodate the Midpoint of woman's strengths you will be well below the midpoint of men's superior strength. That seems like a waste to me.

Women are not on average going to be able to handle a M1911 as well as the average man can. I think that was a supplemental reason that the the M9 was adopted by NATO. I am also worrying that the M468 might be too powerful for an "average" woman.

[Adm.Lee]

The only time I can remember a woman expressing preference in weaponry, was a fellow ROTC cadet, who told me she liked carrying the M60 on exercises. In no way, was I going to argue with her!

That will probably skew your poll results....

[copeab]

I'm honestly don't think I'm being sexist I'm being realistic. Women are smaller and less strong than men on average. That is simple biology. If you choose common armaments to accommodate the Midpoint of woman's strengths you will be well below the midpoint of men's superior strength. That seems like a waste to me.

Most modern military rifles are already like that though, although the reasons were quite different (lighter caliber meant lighter ammo, means more ammo can be carried, for example).

I am also worrying that the M468 might be too powerful for an "average" woman.

I don't see why. Not like it's anywhere close to an M-1 Garand in power (there's a reason why the underpowered M-1 carbine was so popular in WWII and Korea -- it was really too powerful for the average *male* soldier).

[kato13]

Mean maximal hand-grip strength showed the expected clear difference between men (541 N) and women (329 N). Less expected was the gender related distribution of hand-grip strength: 90% of females produced less force than 95% of males. Though female athletes were significantly stronger (444 N) than their untrained female counterparts, this value corresponded to only the 25th percentile of the male subjects.

Even with my assumptions going in I did not expect this large of a variance.

Source http://www.springerlink.com/content/jr2084844337kk82/

[Legbreaker]

ARGH! Statistics!

Run away, run away!

[jester]

Well, when the U.S. adopted the M9 9mm women were qualifying more often and higher than they had previously with the 1911. In part it was due to the recoil difference. Another part was not the mass of the weapon because the M9 is lighter with an allow frame, the .45 all steal, but it was the weapons design and the grips, the M9 was small so the smaller shooters most women could get a better grip, which means better control which means better accuracy. <I put the grips with finger grooves on my .45s and 9mms and my scores went up 10+%>

And yes the lighter recoil added to greater controlability as well.

One could go with lighter calibers which is the same as a heavier weapon with the normal calibers too. Heavier mass for the force of the recoil to operate against theory.

NOW, my opinion,

A revolver in .38 for women, the weapons are compact enough, but heavier so they take alot of the recoil. And they are standard calibers. Otherwise I would say a .380 which is a none standard caliber on the battlefield.

Another weapon which has come into its own is the Sig P228 which is now the M8 I think for the military, a lighter caliber with a smaller grip.

Rifle, the 16 with its light caliber, ligher weight and the gas system do much. Its been eons since I fired a M4/CAR-15 and it was never my primary weapon, but those may be the thing as well, although on full auto all bets are off.

Other weapons, the Glock 22 in .40 would be the greatest I would suggest.

Shotguns, 16 gauge or the 20 gauge either an autoloader or a pump to absorb the recoil.


Those are some of the weapons, I do not recomend the heavy weapons like belt feds due to their weight, the masses and weight of their ammo and the need to haul ass to put them in position and displace to do it over and over again. Over day and weeks of field conditions this will damn near kill a football lineman a woman will do it initialy but she will break sooner from the force and load.

[Targan]

I am also worrying that the M468 might be too powerful for an "average" woman.

I think any rifle in 5.56 and any 9mm pistol or SMG would be fine for female shooters. An M468 is 6.8mm so yes, perhaps its getting a little too powerful for your more petit or less physically strong women. I know for sure that most of the women I served with in the Army Reserve didn't like shooting the SLR. The main reason seemed to be the recoil of the 7.62 round, the secondary reason was the overall mass of the weapon (prone and supported shooting not so much but when they were shooting unsupported while standing or kneeling they seemed to have a really hard time of it). The SLR is probably a bad example though because it was clearly designed for male European soldiers (fairly big people in other words). The M16 and its family seem to me to be designed with a much broader range of users in mind.

Game-wise all of the female NPCs in the PCs' group in my campaign used 9mm pistols but one carried a G3 (she was a pretty solid lass though and very strong and aggresive for a girl). Major Po's signaller/girlfriend (Sgt Li-Li Fang) was a tiny little Chinese-American woman and she carried an M16A2 that looked huge in her hands. I can't imagine her carrying anything bigger, she barely had enough mass to handle the recoil of that weapon. I liked playing Fang as an NPC, she had a tendancy to emit long, shrill screams during firefights if she was scared but it didn't prevent her from accurately shooting. She saved Po's butt on a couple of occassions, including once when they were attacked while "in flagrante delicto"

Interesting article you linked to by the way Kato.

[kato13]

ARGH! Statistics!

Run away, run away!

Ok you asked for it. If statistics don't work. Here come the graphs

[kato13]

I think any rifle in 5.56 and any 9mm pistol or SMG would be fine for female shooters. An M468 is 6.8mm so yes, perhaps its getting a little too powerful for your more petit or less physically strong women. I know for sure that most of the women I served with in the Army Reserve didn't like shooting the SLR. The main reason seemed to be the recoil of the 7.62 round, the secondary reason was the overall mass of the weapon (prone and supported shooting not so much but when they were shooting unsupported while standing or kneeling they seemed to have a really hard time of it). The SLR is probably a bad example though because it was clearly designed for male European soldiers (fairly big people in other words). The M16 and its family seem to me to be designed with a much broader range of users in mind.

Game-wise all of the female NPCs in the PCs' group in my campaign used 9mm pistols but one carried a G3 (she was a pretty solid lass though and very strong and aggresive for a girl). Major Po's signaller/girlfriend (Sgt Li-Li Fang) was a tiny little Chinese-American woman and she carried an M16A2 that looked huge in her hands. I can't imagine her carrying anything bigger, she barely had enough mass to handle the recoil of that weapon. I liked playing Fang as an NPC, she had a tendancy to emit long, shrill screams during firefights if she was scared but it didn't prevent her from accurately shooting. She saved Po's butt on a couple of occassions, including once when they were attacked while "in flagrante delicto"

Interesting article you linked to by the way Kato.

Thanks. You gotta love the internet.