Where are the US airforce and Navy ground Units

[Legbreaker]

While working on my pre 2000 offensive 2nd Marines OOB I noticed the huge number of pre-war machines and men allocated to the 2nd Marine Aircraft Wing, many of which would not likely have survived the preceding years of war to take part in the 2000 offensive.

The Free City of Krakow (page 38) states:

Aircraft of various types, especially helicopters, have been stored in barns and hangars across Europe, but they are useless without fuel, and many have been stripped for parts useful to other endeavours.

This got me thinking about those weapons, in particular the guns, and specifically the 20mm autocannons. Until 1994, the US fielded the M167 Vulcan which fires the same round as almost all the 20mm aircraft cannons (20x102mm). The M167 was replaced with the Avenger in the Marines. With the scarcity of Stinger missiles by 2000, I'm thinking many of those Avenger systems would have been stripped from their Humvee carriers and replaced with ex-aircraft guns as makeshift AAA and ground support systems.

With approximately 1000 M167 ground mounts produced along with innumerable vehicle mounts, not to mention all the aircraft ammo which may have survived, it seems like a good idea.

The 2nd Low Altitude Air Defence Battalion TOE was 300 men and 60 M1097 Avengers, of which only a quarter are judged to have survived (based on factors too numerous to list here). My thoughts are that of the 15 or so vehicles still operating, only 5 are still equipped with the Avenger system and the rest either having been disarmed and re-purposed (into basic cargo/troop carriers) or rearmed with the aircraft weaponry.

Thoughts? Problems? Technical difficulties?

Note that it's also my intention to virtually disband the 2nd Marine Aircraft Wing leaving only a cadre behind in Germany and the 2nd Low Altitude Air Defence Battalion which lands with 2nd MARDIV.

[Olefin]

Keep in mind guys that there will still be jets flying - there are just too many around in the world to not have enough spare parts to keep some of them going. But they will be more of a silver bullet force as time goes on - i.e. sort of like the B2 is now. You may have a single squadron of F-15's in Colorado and thats it for real air to air superiority aircraft still operational in the US, that is only operational by cannibalizing literally dozens of others for the spare parts needed and using remaining machine shops and the like to make spare parts using existing ones as the pattern.

However some jets are a perfect candidate for a post 2000 US Air Force - for instance the A-10 Thunderbolt. One of the reasons they picked it as the resistance jet aircraft for Terminator Salvation was that its so easy to maintain, relatively simple and very hardy and thus the one plane that would survive years of combat in an environment very similar to a T2000 world.

And it fits perfectly what is needed for the post 2000 Twilight War world - i.e. a ground attack aircraft that can do air to air if it has to and can do its job mainly just with its cannon and doesnt need a bunch of missiles to be effective.

[Legbreaker]

Fuel.
There just isn't any to be had in Europe.
There's not even enough to go around in the middle east.
And it's all in black and white in the books.

Of course as usual everyone's free to do what they want in their own world, but I personally aim to stick with the published materials as much as possible so that all may (or may not) use what I produce without problems.

[Olefin]

there is enough fuel to go around in the Middle East to supply three large groups of aircraft that are still very active per Kings Ransom and the RDF - between all three of them

the US has 86 helos, 45 high performance jet fighters and attack planes and 22 transport/patrol/refueling aircraft

the Russians and their allies have 48 helos, 58 high performance jet fighters and bombers and 17 transport aircraft

the French have 20 helos, 48 high performance aircraft, 12 transport/refueling

the Saudis have 12 Tornados

add that up and there is enough fuel to operate 154 helicopters, 163 jet fighters and bombers and attack aircraft and 51 transports

thats a lot of aircraft that are fully operational and have fuel - not for unlimited ops but they are operational (remember in Kings Ransom there is fuel to call in helos for both insertions and retrievals)

and that doesnt count all the tanks, APC's, trucks and Hummers that are still around

and keep in mind what just one fully operational refinery and well could do in Texas - where that one well in six months could make 250,000 gallons of aviation fuel

and we know that there is fuel enough in Europe in at least one place to operate aircraft - Ploesti - with two units having at least ten operational helos there on the Russian side

[Legbreaker]

But no fuel to spare for other areas.
Such as Europe, the place I'm working on now. What's going on elsewhere in the world is completely, utterly and totally irrelevant to the topic at hand which is cannibalism of aircraft in Europe, specifically USMC aircraft (although not limited to them alone), many of which have suffered irreparable damage given the parts and personnel available.

From the BYB:

Aircraft designed to fly on aviation gas cannot get off the ground on alcohol. Thus, air power is mostly a thing of the past (to the secret relief of many infantrymen).

From all versions:

...the grounding of the last cargo aircraft...

From The Free City of Krakow:

Since they require aviation fuel, aircraft have become increasingly rare and are seldom flown. Aircraft of various types, especially helicopters, have been stored in barns and hangars across Europe, but they are useless without fuel, and many have been stripped for parts useful to other endeavours.

Now, if you've got something to add on the current topic of cannibalism, I'm all ears.

[Raellus]

Take it easy, fellas.

Some people prefer T2K without most (or any) of the hi-tech and others like to include some more of it. I fall into the former category but that's neither here nor there. Most of the published materials lay out a vision of the T2KU where aircraft are extremely rare and fly infrequently, if at all. That said, if Olefin prefers a T2KU where aircraft are a little more common, he's entitled to it. Please, let's not get into another one of these arguments because we've all seen where they usually end up going.

Cool?

[Legbreaker]

That said, if Olefin prefers a T2KU where aircraft are a little more common, he's entitled to it.

Exactly what I said in #48 above.

[Olefin]

I am totally cool Raellus - only pointing out that aircraft arent as rare elsewhere in the world as they are in Europe. One of those places being the RDF. And there are aircraft ops even in the US - but on a small scale obviosuly (A Rock in Troubled Waters mentions US aircraft operations but with very limited fuel to critical ops only and an airbase where fuel is scarce but is still used as a relay station to New England)

And keep in mind that the French have enough fuel to be operating helicopters in Going Home - and the last I heard France is part of Europe. (althougth sometimes you wonder if the French think so.. lol)

from Going Home - "Units in the dead zone are in constant radio communication
with their base. If they get into more trouble than they can handle
alone, they can call for and receive support in the form of
airstrikes or airmobile reinforcements (unlike their opponents,
the French Army still has a small quantity of functional aircraft
and the fuel to run them). Avgas does not grow on trees,
however, and the platoon who calls for aviation help had better
have a good reason for doing so.

Reaction Force: This consists of a helicopter-borne patrol
(generally Elite, but often Good) carried in three Puma transport
helicopters, and two Gazelle helicopters (one ground attack and
one anti-tank version). It is dispatched against threats which
the foot patrols have encountered, but feel are too large for them
to handle"

And Med Cruise details Soviet helo ops in the late spring of 2001 with oil from Ploesti still being around

So clearly it is still possible to operate aircraft and they do exist - but in most places there is almost no fuel left for ops (i.e. Krakow's helo only has about 1000 liters or so, the US evac fleet may only have the one operational helicopter and only enough fuel for a short flight for evacuating the rear guard, etc..)

And Raellus - I am only going strictly by whats in the modules as to air ops and the availability of planes and helos and fuel, not my own opinions - I do like having more tech available because frankly it would take decades for all of it to break down.

I am an engineer by trade and by experience - i work with military equipment that was built in the 1950's to 80's and we recondition it to keep it working. And as was seen during WWII its amazing what you can do to keep planes flying - I didnt say they would work as well as before, I said flying.

And keep in mind the effect of even a handful of planes and what they can do when you are the only one having air power. Even if all they can do is be observation planes because their weaponry doesnt work anymore.

Oh and dont worry Raellus - I am not going to pick a fight in any way. One ban is more than enough thank you. Plus everyone is entitled to their opinion here.

[Legbreaker]

Getting back on track

So now that mess is done with, what's the thoughts on post #46?
All viewpoints welcome, but please keep it constructive.

[Raellus]

Cool. I'm glad we're all on the same page.

[Tegyrius]

So now that mess is done with, what's the thoughts on post #46?
All viewpoints welcome, but please keep it constructive.

The first problem I see with ground support mounts for Vulcans is the ammo consumption. You'd need non-trivial transport just to carry a basic load for one engagement. I'm wondering if they'd be better in fixed positions than as maneuver support guns.

- C.

[Raellus]

The first problem I see with ground support mounts for Vulcans is the ammo consumption. You'd need non-trivial transport just to carry a basic load for one engagement. I'm wondering if they'd be better in fixed positions than as maneuver support guns.

That's a good point. A Vulcan on a HEMTT might work. Talk about a wicked gun truck.

[Tegyrius]

That's a good point. A Vulcan on a HEMTT might work. Talk about a wicked gun truck.

Q-wagon. Mount it on a heavy ox-drawn Conestoga-type wagon, put a lightweight collapsible frame and canvas cover over it, and use it for trade caravan defense. Sheer shock value would give you the initiative long enough for your riflemen to pick off the attackers.

- C.

[Graebarde]

Q-wagon. Mount it on a heavy ox-drawn Conestoga-type wagon, put a lightweight collapsible frame and canvas cover over it, and use it for trade caravan defense. Sheer shock value would give you the initiative long enough for your riflemen to pick off the attackers.

- C.

The wagon MIGHT survive the first burst before disintegrating from the vibration. Even the Avengers would be challenged by it.

I put several gun trucks in my OpFred game when the 5th reorganized the winter before the push. The aviation and ADA battalions were the units which, due to nonavailability of fuel for flying except a horded amount and five flyable utility light helos that didn't need a battalion of troops... and lack of missiles for the Avengers.. hence they had about 15 vehicles in different configurations from HUMMV with a fifty and two GPMG with D-grips and crew of 4.. to a HEMTT with everything from miniguns to mortar on board.. the 'battlewagon' of the provisional battalion. The vehicles were farmed out through out the division to provide everything from convoy escort to infantry firesupport.

BUT fuel and ammo is still a problem for them, like everyone else.

[Olefin]

By the way for ultralights keep in mind that they dont need avgas per se - most engines are rated for 93 Octane auto fuel which would be easier to find in the US than avgas for instance.

As to putting aircraft weaponry on gun trucks - interesting paragraph from a wikipedia article on Technicals - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technical_(vehicle)

"Some medium flatbed trucks carried the Soviet-made ZPU and ZU-23-2 towed anti-aircraft twin or quad barreled guns, as well as recoilless rifles and S-5 rocket helicopter rocket launcher pods. Some rebels have improvised with captured heavy weaponry, like BMP-1 turrets and helicopter rocket pods, as well as lower-tech methods such as using doorbells to ignite rocket-launched ammunition."