Potential Australian/New Zealand/East Timor/Indonesia conflict (was Red Dawn Remake

[Targan]

Well I still get freaked out a little every time I think about Indonesia. People have told me time and again that the Indonesian military is qualitatively no match for Australia and New Zealand's armed forces but as an Australian I can't help but feel a bit threatened by Indonesia. Not so much as an immediate threat but a potential future threat. I mean there are what, around 21 million Australians. And our closest neighbour is the largest Muslim nation in the world with somewhere in the vicinity of 230 million people! All crowded on an archipelago in not particularly fantastic living conditions.

I don't think it takes a great leap of imagination to envisage a day where world conditions have deteriorated, rising sea levels eat away more and more of Indonesia's land mass, the military regain some of the power they have lost in the past 15 years and a more militant or (heaven forbid) radical Islamist government takes power. Right now Australia has powerful friends that would tend to scare off any conceivable military threat to Australia but that might not last forever. One of my big regrets is that if Australia and Indonesia ever enter into a serious stoush I'll be too old to do my part for my country in the manner my warrior spirit would want me to. I'll just have to find a sneakier way to have a go at the enemy.

I'm sure that most Indonesians are really nice people but take a look at what the Indonesian military and military-backed militias did in places like East Timor. That was only a few years ago and it was really, really nasty. The Indonesian military clearly has few qualms about engaging in activities that most western militaries would find abhorrent.

[waiting4something]

East timor was hardly even covered in the U.S. media(no big surprise), but I'm sure the sports world was. It is a wake call to most of us that believe bad things can't happen in modern times, but bad shit like that happens in places like the Congo a lot. We just blow it off and wonder who will be eliminated on American Idol. So yeah, I think one day we may be in for a rude awaking. For the U.S.A. our version of this would be Mexico. I always thought invading Mexico was more important then fighting in Iraq and Afganistan, and lately things are getting real interesting on the border.

I remember when I was in Indonesia for a short while. I was blown away by how third world it was. It reminded me of pictures in Soldier of Fortune magazine of Central America back in the 1980's. When I was touring one of the Indonesia Marine bases there I saw they even still had PT-76 tanks!

[Legbreaker]

Back in the day, we trained to fight against the mysterious Kamarians who's country was located somewhere around where Indonesia is - but definitely NOT Indonesia....

Rumour had it that if the Indonesians had the will, and managed to quickly obtain enough transport ships, they could be halfway across Australia before we were even able to mobilise. A couple of weeks later and Australia would consist of little more than the 400,000 living on Tasmania plus another 50,000 or so refugees from the mainland.

Of course there were a number of prerequisites for that scenario to occur (namely will and transport), but it was a topic of discussion late at night around the Company bar - the consensus was that as a unit we'd hit the hills and do what we could from there.

[headquarters]

age..pffft..

Targan , you will be the grey haired gentleman with a brodie helmet and gasmask bag on your chest running around shouting all those insolent teenagers to attention in your towns home defense force.You might not be able to endure all the physical hardship that the younger ones can -but fighting a war isnt about running old chap .It is about holding your position and making the enemy run.

having the will to fight is pre requisite no 1 in a situation where national sovereignity is at stake in a sudden crisis or invasion.

The fellows who sank the Blucher the 9th of April 1940 ( one of the worlds most advanced and powerful warships at the time ) were reservists and the commander was in his 60s if I recall correctly .The guns were from the last half of the 1800s..The Kriegsmarine was cheeky and sent an esqadrille up the Oslofjord to capture our goverment,king and capitol in one fouls swoop in the guise of darkness,but they had to pass a narrow strait guarded by antique guns and a crew of reservist with a 3 week conscription in the 1920s behind them before they were recalled for this duty(!).The leaders were retired officers of ripe age.

The professional soldiers and young men in charge of the defense of our nation were biting their nails in fear and confusion, fleeing,surrendering,running around screaming incoherently ,and politicians were milling about with no clear orders - the decision to fight the approaching ships -and thus entering world war two was made by the unlikely heros of a band of reservists with little training and some old warhorses -some who had come out of retirement to take up posts at the Oscarsborg fortress in the Oslofjord -voluntarily.

It is a part of the story that the nationality of the ships approaching was unknown at the time the battery fired -for all they knew they might have been british!(We have fought them before you know).
But turns out -they were the boche and bobs your uncle -Norway became one of the allies.We were neutral at the time ,and the brits and the jerries both violated our neutrality .War with either seemed likely if it came to a situation with a push.
.

In a sudden invasion there will be panic and confusion -and as Legbreaker says -many professional military men will head for the hills because of the seemingly hopeless situation .Politicians and business men will back out in many cases -not willing to bear the responsibility for decisions that will lead to deaths.The fight is then left to reservists,volunteers and whoever else happens to be caught in the fighting .

Get a khaki kookabura slouch hat and some wide baggy shorts and go for it mate !

Well I still get freaked out a little every time I think about Indonesia. People have told me time and again that the Indonesian military is qualitatively no match for Australia and New Zealand's armed forces but as an Australian I can't help but feel a bit threatened by Indonesia. Not so much as an immediate threat but a potential future threat. I mean there are what, around 21 million Australians. And our closest neighbour is the largest Muslim nation in the world with somewhere in the vicinity of 230 million people! All crowded on an archipelago in not particularly fantastic living conditions.

I don't think it takes a great leap of imagination to envisage a day where world conditions have deteriorated, rising sea levels eat away more and more of Indonesia's land mass, the military regain some of the power they have lost in the past 15 years and a more militant or (heaven forbid) radical Islamist government takes power. Right now Australia has powerful friends that would tend to scare off any conceivable military threat to Australia but that might not last forever. One of my big regrets is that if Australia and Indonesia ever enter into a serious stoush I'll be too old to do my part for my country in the manner my warrior spirit would want me to. I'll just have to find a sneakier way to have a go at the enemy.

I'm sure that most Indonesians are really nice people but take a look at what the Indonesian military and military-backed militias did in places like East Timor. That was only a few years ago and it was really, really nasty. The Indonesian military clearly has few qualms about engaging in activities that most western militaries would find abhorrent.

[Legbreaker]

...and as Legbreaker says -many professional military men will head for the hills because of the seemingly hopeless situation .Politicians and business men will back out in many cases -not willing to bear the responsibility for decisions that will lead to deaths.The fight is then left to reservists,volunteers and whoever else happens to be caught in the fighting.

At the time we were reservists which was one of the reasons the hills were looking so good - home turf which some of us knew like the backs of our hands, not to mention our unit had suffered through quite a number of years of cutbacks in funding - we didn't think we'd be a priority to receive ammo, weapons, body armour (not that it was all that common then), and everything else necessary for a modern battlefield.
Fortunately most of us had our own arsenals to bolster the worn out M60s and two dozen L1A1s in the armoury, not to mention access to plenty of explosives (much of it home made).

The way we saw it, the regular soldiers would be toast in a rather short space of time and the majority of civilians would either choose not to fight, or be rolled over in a heartbeat. Us poor reservists along with whoever we could find willing and able to listen to us had the best chance of resistance long term.

Nearly 20 years later that attitude seems rather naive, but, we were young and thought we knew the answers to everything...

[Webstral]

Perhaps the Australian version of Red Dawn should be called Crescent Moon Rising.

Webstral

[pmulcahy11b]

East timor was hardly even covered in the U.S. media(no big surprise), but I'm sure the sports world was.

It wasn't much, though MSNBC covered it here in the US more than most. East Timor actually made it into the plot of several episodes of JAG as well, believe it or not.

[headquarters]

hehe

I hear you .No critisizm intended whatsoever of you guys.
I just wanted to point out that our experiences has taught us not to trust the military to protect us - thats why we have had enthusiastic conscription and gusn in every house for 50 years ..Thats all coming to an end now ,with the increased focus on assymetrical warfare and operations abroad to quell the insurgencies in the sands and the Hindukush.

As you say - we thought the same thing back in the 90s when we were young and running our guns on the tundra up north .We were told ( unofficially )that our gear and resources were for two purposes :

start a shooting match so that no political solution would leave us in any diplomatic capacity aligned with the invading Ruskies

hold out for 14 days to allow the US- ,Roya-l,Konglichje- Marines and the Canucks to get here and push the communist aggressors out into the North Sea.
I believe we also had Bundeswehr and Italian Alpini alotted to our sector if the big one went off.

Of course -it was all winding down then, and everything was sort of in a vacuum .No idelogically motivated superpower enemy at our border anymore huh

I still believe in conscription and that our military should be geared towards keeping our soverignity intact on our home turf .But I dont feel good about pulling out of all the shitholes either..

At the time we were reservists which was one of the reasons the hills were looking so good - home turf which some of us knew like the backs of our hands, not to mention our unit had suffered through quite a number of years of cutbacks in funding - we didn't think we'd be a priority to receive ammo, weapons, body armour (not that it was all that common then), and everything else necessary for a modern battlefield.
Fortunately most of us had our own arsenals to bolster the worn out M60s and two dozen L1A1s in the armoury, not to mention access to plenty of explosives (much of it home made).

The way we saw it, the regular soldiers would be toast in a rather short space of time and the majority of civilians would either choose not to fight, or be rolled over in a heartbeat. Us poor reservists along with whoever we could find willing and able to listen to us had the best chance of resistance long term.

Nearly 20 years later that attitude seems rather naive, but, we were young and thought we knew the answers to everything...

[waiting4something]

It wasn't much, though MSNBC covered it here in the US more than most. East Timor actually made it into the plot of several episodes of JAG as well, believe it or not.

I can't believe it. But, I was like 13 at the time, so I'll take your word for it. I just remember being interested in it, but what was shown was very vague.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

One of my friends was asked if he would rejoin the military when the fighting in East Timor occured. His cousin (female) was married to an ex-SAS guy who was also asked to come back

[Webstral]

But, I was like 13 at the time, so I'll take your word for it. I just remember being interested in it, but what was shown was very vague.

Dude, you're killing me.

Webstral

[pmulcahy11b]

I can't believe it. But, I was like 13 at the time, so I'll take your word for it. I just remember being interested in it, but what was shown was very vague.

You said it, Web! I'm almost old enough to be his grandfather!

[waiting4something]

You said it, Web! I'm almost old enough to be his grandfather!

No, I just had my timeline screwed up I thought that it happened in the early 1990's, for some reason. How I was this far off I don't know I could have swore something happen there back then, but I looked and I'm dead wrong. Sorry about that.

[Legbreaker]

As far as I'm aware, the US barely had any involvement at all in East Timor. Most of the work was done by Australians with some small support from a few other nations.
The UN basically washed it's hands of the situation, at least in the first few months.

Of course with the intial invasion by Indonesia occuring back in the 70's, and the Australian government of the day sitting on their hands in fear of a confrontation, it was about time we did something good for the East Timorese.

[headquarters]

Not totally wrong

No, I just had my timeline screwed up I thought that it happened in the early 1990's, for some reason. How I was this far off I don't know I could have swore something happen there back then, but I looked and I'm dead wrong. Sorry about that.

Actually , East Timor in particular and Indonesia in general has been a powderkeg with numerous civil wars and insurgencies ( not to mention banditry,piracy and religious strife ) for a long time.

Reports of bombings,guerilla warfare and oppression have been plentiful ever since modern media coverage started.

I wonder if the incident in the 90s tho which you refer is the student massacre -same old story,unarmed students with flowers and slogans ,armed security forces with short temper .I know that it was one of the turning points in the East Timorese war for independence in the way that it brought attention and brought East Timorese together in support of the Fretellin.

It rang a bell .