Aviation Assets.

[Abbott Shaull]

Hearing the local Coast Guard Helo fly by had me thinking.

What would the US or for that fact any NATO member would have in actual usable helos. I know the US Divisional Aviation Brigade has been quite enlarged, by moving assets from upper levels down and new units.

Yet, in the t2k original time-line. Would there be enough left around, especially in Europe to be of much use. I do understand the Middle East assets having a large number of them left, then again with the 101st Air Assault and 6th Air Combat Cavalry Brigade accounted for the large number still in operational use by both units after Army helos were consolidated into those two units.

Yet, in Europe and Korea, we don't get any information on if there any that are still operational at any level, at least from the modules. I know there were air modules in the Challenge Magazine. Also in Krakow there was 1 Helo. From what I have seen of helo compliment at Pact Divisional level and losses this wouldn't seem too far fetch. I mean they make a big deal of giving AFV info even if they M728 CEV or LAV-75, but only give helos to 6th ACCB and 101st. I am sure there are more helos in Europe than that, granted fuel was the main problem, but somewhere I am sure someone would try to consolidate them into such units as the pre-war 11th and 12th Aviation Brigade and scrounging up what every they could find for fuel....

So as GM are we to assume that most Helos have been consolidated at some level above Division or are there too few to even worry about. Yeah, I know their is limit supply of fuel for them, but I still find hard to believe that even the limited Offensive of 2000, that NATO didn't try to get something of operational unit to support the 3rd German Army at least even if they didn't have enough to give assets to Corps levels.

I do know Grae had the 5th Mechanized down to few aircraft that were grounded due to lack of fuel for the most part.

Any thoughts.

[Adm.Lee]

I just assumed if there was any jet fuel left in 2000, it would be saved for fast-movers, rather than helos.

Maybe a lift ship or two for a really important special-ops mission.

[Raellus]

Spare parts would also be an issue in 2000.

I went to a local airshow a couple of months back and a CH-53 crew chief said it took like 60 man-hours of maintainance for every hour flying. If you don't have the spare parts to make repairs, your bird is grounded. After the manufacture of new spares comes to a halt in late '97, the only way to get spares is to cannibalize other birds. Over time, you'd have very few operational helis left, even if fuel for them was available.

On the other hand, I think helicopter gunships and/or CAS aircraft like the A-10 or SU-25 would be more valuable in 2000 than the "fast movers" like the F-16, F-15E, and Tornado IDS. With the state of things in 2000, I just think direct battlefield support would be a bigger priority and a better investment than interdiction and deep strike.

[Abbott Shaull]

You know I understand the spare parts. Yet in Europe the US Army has probably 1.5 times to twice as many helos than they do in the Middle East. Granted too many two Stars would want to keep assets but when a three Star or four Star ask for something, they generally tend to cough up what was asked, even if they do so begrudgingly...

[HorseSoldier]

Everybody in Europe were also operating in what was probably the most lethal air defense environment in human history, Attrition of aviation assets on both sides must have been staggering during the pre-nuclear phase of the war.

[Abbott Shaull]

Yes, I also realize this too, that is one of reason why I believe that helo assets would be consolidated more quickly. Too keep those that were operational with the ability to perform their functions. Never bough into the theory into units operating at less 50% of their authorized TO&E before the Nukes dropped in late 1997 and 1998. If Aviation unit or Armor unit dropped below they would be relieved of front-line service and sent to the rear for rest and reoragnization. Which could include the handing over of equipment and personnel to other units to keep them functional.

[Raellus]

Yes, I also realize this too, that is one of reason why I believe that helo assets would be consolidated more quickly. Too keep those that were operational with the ability to perform their functions. Never bough into the theory into units operating at less 50% of their authorized TO&E before the Nukes dropped in late 1997 and 1998. If Aviation unit or Armor unit dropped below they would be relieved of front-line service and sent to the rear for rest and reoragnization. Which could include the handing over of equipment and personnel to other units to keep them functional.

This assumes that operational contingencies would allow for decimated units to be pulled out of the line. Under massive WP pressure, this may not have been possible in many cases.

I still think the paucity of aircraft by 2000 can be explained by pre-TDM attrition (HorseSoldier made this point very well) and post-TDM spares and fuel scarcity.

On one hand, consolidation makes sense. Two or three helis per division are not going to be able to make much of an operational or strategic impact. On the other, concentrating a Corps' worth of helicopters makes them a tempting target for the enemies remaining air/missile forces, effectively putting all the eggs in one basket. For this reason, dispersal, diffusion makes tactical and strategic sense.

[Abbott Shaull]

Yes I agree having the assets spread out would make sense, but being able to use them as unit would help too.

[Webstral]

In the Gulf, CENTCOM concentrates its surviving attack helicopters in 6th ACCB.

Webstral

[waiting4something]

Would it be possible for a private army to still have a bunch of air assets I mean one's off the radar. Or would something like that be easily detected by intel It'd be bad ass if everyone's air assets are thought to be gone and out of nowhere some A-10's or something start messing stuff up.

[jester]

The craft are not the issue, but the issue is the support structure for strike aircraft, or a large fleet of any size.

ALTHOUGH!

An aviaton museum could be the perfect front for such an operation, just keep the aircraft involved to be older planes.

Instead of a AC131 Spectre, have a DC-3 Puff the Magic Dragon

Have a couple F-4 Phantoms, a P51 or two and some FU Corsairs. Or even a F105 Thunderbolt.

There are many air museums that keep several of their vintage planes in flying condition. And they had spares which is a plus. I can see a force moving in taking over and poof! Instant Air Force. Of course where do they get the fuel for them Pilots, Aircraft mechanics and even systems can be had or found. Old engines can be replaced with more modern engines with some fabrication, but the fuel to keep them in the air, hydraulic fluid, oil and similiar consumables is the problem that I see, however!

Those can also be raided from other planes at the airport, as well as the onsite mechanics shop and the hangars where private piliots restore and repair their own craft. But even these items will run out.

And then we also have the issue of ordinance

Machineguns could be found and aquired. Ammo for say a .50 or a .30 caliber can be had or made. But the more advanced ordinance, could become an issue, as well as rockets, and anything other than homemade dumbbombs, or even retarded bombs. There is napalm, but would you use the fuel for that Or would you use it to fly your planes Then again they have those fuel air bombs which could be useful.

A cool thought for sure.

[pmulcahy11b]

Although -- most display aircraft are essentially hollow. They're a more-or-less sealed airframe, but not much else.

[Dog 6]

by law all display aircraft in the USA are "cut" . they can't and couldn't be made to fly.

[jester]

Ah, but I am thinking of the working planes at places like Chino's "Planes of Fame" museum and a few other places that do have working models. Or the Confederate now the Commemorative Air Force, these tend to also work in conjunction with many of the air museums.

As for planes with which are "cut" it all depends on what is cut, I would argue that statement, someone with an A&P certificate or a couple people with such with the proper materials could probably make it happen. After all alot of those folks have recovered planes from wrecks that crashed and sat for decades and returned them to flying order.

And, a old style piston inline or radial engine fighter or attack aircraft would require ALOT of maintenance. But, it is doable compared to what a more modern jet would require in terms of maintenance, materials and support and service.

[Targan]

An aviaton museum could be the perfect front for such an operation, just keep the aircraft involved to be older planes.

Instead of a AC131 Spectre, have a DC-3 Puff the Magic Dragon

Have a couple F-4 Phantoms, a P51 or two and some FU Corsairs. Or even a F105 Thunderbolt.

Great idea. The F-4 Phantom probably isn't a good example though. I may be wrong but IIRC the Phantom required a lot of maintenance man hours per hour of flight time. Piston powered aircraft would be very viable though, IMO.