Alcohol production, and moving a division

[atiff]

Hi all,

Two questions:

Firs: How "realistic" are the figures for input and output of the stills used in the T2K rules E.g., Large still 3,000kg to make 2,400 liters. Is anyone a brewer and can comment (I've been hunting but can't find numbers... and I am struck by the disparity between the input/output ratios on the different sized stills.)

Second: I've been trying to get a handle on just how much alcohol was needed to move US 5 ID. I've been guessing vehicle numbers, then working out how many liters / period to move it all, and hence the amount of time and material to make that much alcohol. It seems over-the-top at the moment, and relies a lot on the answer to Q1 above. My question here is, has anyone gone and worked this out before

Thanks,
Andrew

[Targan]

I recommend that you go to the Thread Map (it is the second sticky thread at the top of this forum's thread list) where there are lists of many past discussions on this and similar topics. Specifically I would recommend looking under the heading Fuel ( here is the link - http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.phpt=773#t2k_fuel ). That will give you access to lots of good information my knowledgeable fellow forumites have posted.

[atiff]

Hi,

I did look at the map, and scoured through it, but these two questions (still input/output realism, and quantity of alcohol) didn't seem to be addressed as such.

Anyway, here's a quick example with some rounded-off numbers.

Consider the move by 256th Brigade in the 'Escape from Kalisz' storyline, moving from north of Lodz (say Leczyca) to Lask, a distance of about 70km by road route. Going from the file I have been using for their structure (the one about their reorganization in 1999), let's say they have 22 M113 and 12 M60A3. On-road rates would say that each vehicle moves about 2/3 of a 4-hr period to make that move, or off-road about 1 period.

Given their fuel consumption rates (65 for M60 and 85 for M113), that is between 11,000 - 16,000 liters of ethanol (depending on rate of movement), which equates (via large still) to 14 - 20 tons of edible matter in the stills.

Given the distance from the northern German-Polish border to Lodz (via Torun) is about 550 km, that's about 90-140,000 liters to get the brigade to Lodz in the first place.

(Multiply those numbers by about 3 if your brigade has M1 and M2 vehicles instead - so maybe 2 or 3 million liters to move the whole division to Lodz hence 3 or 4 thousand tons of edible material. Just for 5 ID.)

As I said, just curious about the still efficiency, more than anything, as it has such a bit impact on all of these numbers (being the source of the alcohol).

Thanks for your thoughts,
Andrew

[Legbreaker]

One way to address this issue is to substitute "production" with "resupply". The Division paused while waiting for rear eschelon transportation assets to catch up and refuel them.
This approach may help to explain why the US 8th ID is stuck where it is - according to common sense and the implied information we're given in the game, a division is supposed to be hauling stills with them. The stranding of the 8th on the other hand is easily justifiable if you take into account the lack of a supply train following on behind (the Marines were supposed to secure the 8th and 5th IDs rear areas across the baltic coast, thereby ensuring both land and sea-borne resupply).

[Abbott Shaull]

Hi,

Consider the move by 256th Brigade in the 'Escape from Kalisz' storyline, moving from north of Lodz (say Leczyca) to Lask, a distance of about 70km by road route. Going from the file I have been using for their structure (the one about their reorganization in 1999), let's say they have 22 M113 and 12 M60A3. On-road rates would say that each vehicle moves about 2/3 of a 4-hr period to make that move, or off-road about 1 period.

Given their fuel consumption rates (65 for M60 and 85 for M113), that is between 11,000 - 16,000 liters of ethanol (depending on rate of movement), which equates (via large still) to 14 - 20 tons of edible matter in the stills.

Given the distance from the northern German-Polish border to Lodz (via Torun) is about 550 km, that's about 90-140,000 liters to get the brigade to Lodz in the first place.

(Multiply those numbers by about 3 if your brigade has M1 and M2 vehicles instead - so maybe 2 or 3 million liters to move the whole division to Lodz hence 3 or 4 thousand tons of edible material. Just for 5 ID.)

Andrew

Don't forget the Engineering, Maintenance, and Artillery vehicles along with Supply vehicle and numerous HMMWV such an organization would have... Depending on if you each Brigade with an assigned a Forward Support Battalion or if it just has collection of various support companies from Battalions assigned to Division. Either way you have to add their fuel to the equation too. The HMMWV and smaller vehicles used by the Division would use very little fuel when compared the main combat assets of the Brigade, but the other assets will use just as much fuel if not more depending how you have the Division organized.

Just some thoughts.

[atiff]

Yep, I know... it all adds up.

After more hunting around, I did manage to find some numbers for ethanol and work some things out. Here's the data (below).

The upshot of this is that is seems to show that some of the still numbers from the T2K book are incorrect. The large still would seem to break the theoretical maximums. The medium still (35 L from 80 kg) seems to be reasonable, if a bit high.

Perhaps a rule modification to stills would require only three numbers to be known: weight of still in kg, capacity of the still in kg, and a basic conversion rate for edible starchy material as feedstock (perhaps 35-40% = 350-400 L per 1000 kg).

Other points: enzymatic processes are probably not going to happen in a T2K world, but an acid process could. Acids are not hard to produce in basic ways (see for example the 'History' section of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfuric_acid), so acid hydrolysis seems to be an option for producing ethanol from wood waste, etc., in a larger city with some technical resources (e.g., Krakow). It seems 200 L per 1000 kg of dry wood is achievable, and would certainly be worth doing to save food for more important things.

Anyway, interested in comments/critiques of these thoughts.
Andrew




Ethanol from Cellulose: http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/ncnu02/v5-017.html

Max theoretical from sugar feedstock: 590 L from 1000 kg
(realistically: maybe 500 L from 1000 kg)

Starchy feedstock (maize example): 10 L from 25 kg (400 L from 1000 kg)

Cellulose - acid hydrolysis of wood: 189 L from 1000 kg
Cellulose - two-stage acid hydrolysis: 270 L from 1000 kg
Cellulose - TVA high-conc. acid process: 227 L from 1000 kg


From Wikipedia - cellulosic ethanol: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellulosic_ethanol

Early 20th-C German acid process: 211 L from 1000 kg
Chemical hydrolysis of cellulose: 392 L from 1000 kg


From Wikipedia - ethanol fermentation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fermentation

Modern US corn-based ethanol production: 420 L from 1000 kg


From Mother Earth Alcohol Fuel: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_...meCh2.html#2_3 (but "excerpted directly from Fuel from Farms -- A Guide to Small-Scale Ethanol Production. United States Department of Energy, Washington, D.C. 20545" circa 1980)

Cereal grains: about 400 L from 1000 kg
Potatoes: 131 L from 1000 kg
Sugar beets: 84 L from 1000 kg

[pmulcahy11b]

Is one of you here the person who gave me the Java calculator for still size and requirements

And more importantly, do I still have it

[Jason]

I see no reason to question the input/output figures from the game. I am sure they are very simplified, but it works well as a game mechanic.

As far as how much fuel would be required, that would vary by Division. The only Division I can think of that has a more-or-less full Order of Battle is the 8th Infantry Division (Mechanized) from the East European Sourcebook.

They have 21 tanks, 9 M109 SPA's, 4 MLRS's, 2 M691's, 42 Bradley's and dozens of trucks and tankers in addition to an unknown number of HMMVW's. Over 100 vehicles total and they also have 4 helicopters.

The book indicates that the Division would require months to brew enough fuel for all the vehicles (I guess they have limited still capacity as they were supposed to be on a combat mission when they got lost in Latvia).