1st US Army / XII Corps

[Rainbow Six]

Hi guys,

Quick question...the US Army Vehicle Guide states that both the above higher headquarters are located on the US East Coast.

Does anyone know if any published material gives a specific location for either of them

Thanks

[Legbreaker]

Howling Wilderness has the 1st Army as "This army has effectively ceased to exist and headquarters personnel have dispersed".
The 78th Infantry Division (light) is located at Fort Dix, New Jersey with 900 personnel after absorbing 800 replacements from Omega according to Howling Wilderness.
The 43rd MP Brigade is located in and around Westover AFB in Massachusetts according to The Last Submarine. Howling Wilderness has the 43rd as having mutinied (after The Last Sub events early in 2001), killed it's commanding officer and dispersed.
There doesn't appear to be any indication where the Corps HQ is located, but my guess would place it, or at least the few remnants of it, with the 78th.

[Rainbow Six]

Thanks. I'd agree - Fort Dix seems to be the logical place to find any remaining elements of XII Corps.

[kalos72]

The 1st Army situation was always a puzzle to me...

Side note: Whats the difference between an Army and a Corps

[kota1342000]

An Army is the next larger grouping of forces above a Corps, and may have 2 or 3 Corps under its command. For instance, Patton's 3rd Army in the Lorraine campaign (if I have this correct) commanded the XII, XV, and XX Corps. Each Corps having 2 or 3 Divisions normally.
The East Coast situation always made me scratch my head a little too. I eventually built an additional order of battle for after the 2001 drought disaster that would reflect the US Army getting back on its feet.

[Fusilier]

The 1st Army situation was always a puzzle to me...

Side note: Whats the difference between an Army and a Corps

It's just the next formation level up. An army is made up of one or more corps and army level assets.

For example the British Army of the Rhine (Army level) is made up of I Corps, II Corps, and a couple other smaller assets.

[kalos72]

Kota - care to share that OoB

[Abbott Shaull]

One of the thing is that lot of the unit that would be under the control of the 1st Army along the East Coast were rushed to the 5th and 6th Armies to help in the southwest. Also there additional units in the northwest that would of been more spread out on relief missions, but due to the Soviet invasion in the Alaska and Northwestern Canada and almost making it Washington State many units had been combat that would of been doing relief missions or running basic/AIT training.

I tend to agree there would be many more assets including new infantry units made out of excess Naval/Coast Guard/Air Force units....

[kalos72]

In my campaign I have been contemplating moving the 1st Army HQ back to Governors Island NYC...since I have MILGOV sending units to retake NYC.

[HorseSoldier]

Note also that NATO/western use of 'Army' as an echelon differs from Soviet/Warsaw Pact usage. Their 'Army' level units are the same size as NATO Corps (and Soviet WW2 era Corps did exist, but aren't relevant).

[Legbreaker]

I tend to agree there would be many more assets including new infantry units made out of excess Naval/Coast Guard/Air Force units....

It is my belief these excess personnel would have been assigned to sub units of the existing 78th and 43rd rather than create another unnecessary command structure as the Germans had a habit of doing in WWII.
It makes more sense to make up several company's of sailors, etc and attach those units to existing parent units who can utilize the manpower immediately than muck about organising a HQ and supporting units. These sub units are unlikely to be sent into combat, but could be used for civil duties - construction, static guard, food and supply acquisition, maintenance, etc. Some may have been gradually retrained for other ground based roles once the lack of ships became obvious and may eventually have been split up as the demands for manpower in other more vital units grew.
A division, even a brigade is a big organization. There's more than enough room for such sub units to be absorbed with barely a trace.

[Webstral]

I think First US Army HQ was in Richmond, VA until the timeframe of Howling Wilderness. I have no idea where I read that, though. Given that the US Army Vehicle Guide and Howling Wilderness only list combat units of brigade size or greater and support units acting in the combat role, it's highly likely that support units were operating under First US Army through 1998 at least.

Webstral

[Abbott Shaull]

Note also that NATO/western use of 'Army' as an echelon differs from Soviet/Warsaw Pact usage. Their 'Army' level units are the same size as NATO Corps (and Soviet WW2 era Corps did exist, but aren't relevant).

That because in many cases the Soviet WW2 Tank and Mechanized Corps were used as the basis for Tank and Motorized Rifle Division as regular Infantry and Cavalry Divisions were later converted into what ever division that was needed....

[Abbott Shaull]

It is my belief these excess personnel would have been assigned to sub units of the existing 78th and 43rd rather than create another unnecessary command structure as the Germans had a habit of doing in WWII.
It makes more sense to make up several company's of sailors, etc and attach those units to existing parent units who can utilize the manpower immediately than muck about organising a HQ and supporting units. These sub units are unlikely to be sent into combat, but could be used for civil duties - construction, static guard, food and supply acquisition, maintenance, etc. Some may have been gradually retrained for other ground based roles once the lack of ships became obvious and may eventually have been split up as the demands for manpower in other more vital units grew.
A division, even a brigade is a big organization. There's more than enough room for such sub units to be absorbed with barely a trace.

I agree to a point. If the US Army had unit nearby that needed to reinforce it would move the personnel from those forces into the local Army units. In other cases where there was no nearby Army unit, and only thing local was Naval, Coast Guard, Marine they would be rolled up into and become an very limited used Marine/Naval Infantry unit, or used to beef security and such. Where it was Air Force unit largely, you would see some larger Security Squadrons.

In early 1999 it wouldn't be to much of stretch for units being assigned and still expected to answer to commanders up to 50 mile are further away. If they had resource they would still have reasonable amount of time to shift forces. By the start of 2000 the some unit who have been order to move decided to stay put, acting as Infantry. Largely due to no matter what many Divisions no matter what side they were on controlled very little of the territory they were expected to patrol. If the unit was concentrated it may be able to exert control of area of up to 10-15 mile radius of their supply base. While spread out units would control area where they have set up bases and control little more than what was within the range of their weapons, and where they mount patrols at...

Just some thoughts....

[Abbott Shaull]

I think First US Army HQ was in Richmond, VA until the timeframe of Howling Wilderness. I have no idea where I read that, though. Given that the US Army Vehicle Guide and Howling Wilderness only list combat units of brigade size or greater and support units acting in the combat role, it's highly likely that support units were operating under First US Army through 1998 at least.

Webstral

That was large amount of trouble. GDW focused on what they considered combat units and never got on the supply, support, engineering, and other units that would support. Even in the guides many of Support Companies were added to the Battalion information, but above that you didn't see much information, even the HHC/HHT/HHB were largely glossed over.

By the US vehicle guide one wouldn't know that the US Division Artillery were under the control of an Artillery Brigade HQ, nor did the do good job breaking down the various 'typical' brigades organization. There was no mention of any of the Support Battalion and Companies that would be assigned to Brigades and Divisions. Save thing with the Cavalry Squadrons of the Division being attached to the Aviation Brigade, of course this Squadron had two Air Cavalry Troops and to land base Mechanized/Motorized troops.

What was the TO&E of a the 'typical' Engineer Battalion, Medical Battalion, Supply and Transport Battalion, Maintenance Battalion, Signal Battalion, Military Intelligence Battalion, Chemical Company, and MP Company. I know they some differed only slightly from the Heavy Division as oppose to the Light Divisions, yet many of the Battalions would be vastly different for Heavy Division over the Light Division. I mean they went out of their way to include the ADA Battalions because they felt they would play a large role, but these units are some of the things many people don't consider.

Even if the GM and the gamer were smart enough to realize that the Light Motorized, Heavy Motorized, and the LAV-75 Light Armor Battalions were never realized and the use FAV other than scout vehicle with the 9th Motorized Division. I mean the FAV with TOW was just insane. Then add in the fact that the 9th Infantry by their information Artillery had been M109s Battalions. The number of the vehicles in Light Motorized Companies would mean someone had to be real creative in the use of them. It was like break down of 6 HMMWVs to move Platoon was crazy. The dismounted element for each vehicle was 3 and would mean your dismounted element wouldn't be much less than M2 Mechanized Platoon. I used 6 per platoon due to the fact that HQs and Mortar team would split the other 5 vehicles that the Company had and that still leaves none of them assigned for supply and medic evac.

Or the fact if you were on the ball to realize that the light armor unit and motorized units assigned to the Light Infantry Division were nothing but GDW taking information they probably got from Popular Mechanic article on the Rapid Deployment Force which morphed into Central Command. If they used the 3 Infantry Battalion in 3 Brigade like the 82nd and 101st were assigned as. Some could try to explain a reason why 101st and Light Infantry Division would have some type of Armor Battalion (note: with the Light Infantry Division they could be NG units in M60, also there is book I have filed away that had the 101st with it own organic M2s but never seen it on TO&Es that I seens). Ideally if the Division of the 6th, 7th, 10th Mountain, 25th, 82nd Airborne, or 101st Air Assault decided to pool vehicle they could Motorized one of their Brigades and if they were creative could assigned the armor battalion to this brigade and detach the infantry to provide security/division reserve for the Division trains. Nor did they touch on the Berlin Brigade, the 193rd Infantry Brigade in Panama, or the Airborne Infantry Battalion based in Italy. I am sure that the Berlin Brigade was all but wiped out, and the Airborne Task Force in Italy and the 193rd were used for reinforcement where needed (note: the 193rd had one Airborne Battalion so both this and the Italian based task force with the support unit of the 193rd could morph into the 173rd Airborne Brigade or all used as reinforcements for say the XVIII Airborne Corps).

Same with Marine Division lot of things were left out. Also the Reserve and National Guard Anti-Armor units that were assigned to the Infantry Division were lacking too and the Long Range Recon types as well lack of Ranger Battalion organization and a 'typical' Special Force Group. Also they 'deleted' several round-out brigade for active duty divisions too. The 6th, 7th, 10th, and 25th had light Infantry Round-out Brigade while supposedly the 1st and 4th Mechanized Division which were organized as Armor Division in real life and depending on where you got your information they were either full strength or had round out brigade assign. Seems like only the 2nd Armored Division that was based in the US at Fort Hood had all 3 Combat Brigades on active duty and even with this one Brigade was forward deployed in Europe as well as the 1st Mechanized had one brigade forward deployed in Europe.

Then their is the issue of the National Guard and Reserve Divisions that had been deployed to Europe before 1998 and the ability of the US Marine Corps to train and deployed the 5th and 6th Marine Divisions, but yet the 6th US Army in California has no mention of an additional Marine units that without doubt would be used to reinforce Marine in Korea and to form another Division and same thing on the East Coast. The fact, that even though in RL the 197th at Fort Benning was with the 24th Mechanized Division had been task to go Germany (Note: Even though the 24th Mechanized had been assigned to be part of the XVIII to provide the extra muscle). The 194th depending on the source you read was suppose to stay at Fort Knox as base to train new units or to deploy to Europe as reinforce there. The 177th Armor Brigade in Southern California which was never mentioned, but had mission to train other brigade as op-for, what happen to it.

In my opinion very few of the National Guard and Reserve Division that were found in Europe and Korea would of made it there in one piece. For that matter I don't see any unit in the states with the exception of the 82nd and 101st being deployed as they have stated in the vehicle guide. I do see the 10th Mountain going to Norway, but not the 6th Infantry Division, they would probably lose one combat Brigade with their Airborne Battalion to the 2nd Infantry Division and use absorb the Alaskan National Guard. After that personnel of the III Corps would fly over to preposition sites with two of the 5 Divisional HQ and all of the Aviation and Support units would go over. They would work to get to make sure that all Divisions had 4 combat brigades. Two in the line, one in reserve position and other one further back that would be rest-refit mode. 193rd with the Italian based Airborne Battalion would go with the XVIII Corps to make two weak brigades to be attached to the 82nd and 101st. The units of the 7th and 25th would deployed under the command of one the Division. 24th Mechanized would deployed with 2 Brigades to back up the XVIII Corps. The 197th and 194th would be wild cards, in that they could be deployed with the III Corps or rushed with their equipment to reinforce the 24th Mechanized Division. The 9th Test Bed Division would probably start out heading to Korea, but would be diverted to Korea with the adding couple National Guard units to such as the 163rd Armored Cavalry Regiment and Armor Brigade from Washington or California. Then rest of the NG Brigade from California, Oregon, and Washington going to other HQ of the 7th or 25th Division. Same thing with Mechanized, Infantry, and Armor National Guard Brigade from Texas to New England would be trained up and under the command of last three Division of the III Corps that didn't go in right away. Look at the deployment to the Middle East over the last 7 years and during Operation Desert Storm why this would happen.

Leaving the HQ of most of these National Guard Division free to absorb the new units being made at various military post that are playing host to Reserve Division which would do the Basic and AIT training and the National Guard HQ which was wait to be re-organized. All the while the Basic and AIT would have to send replacement to the three fronts too. In many cases the replacement sent out would outstrip what they Basic and AIT unit were able to produce. Meaning once the Soviet invaded Alaska that many of the National Guard unit that had been training to go to Europe, Korea or Middle East would be sent to the northwest. While once the Mexican crossed the border the Reserve Division doing Basic/AIT would be press in a come as your war with them in the southwest....

Just some thoughts...