Need your help/advice on optics , supressors and so on!

[Eddie]

Edit: When were armed forces beginning with the widespread issue of "red-dots"? I think, they will not be encountered in the T2k-world all that often, right?

The first military use reported is the Son Tay Raid during the Vietnam War. Widespread use came in the late 90s with the US Army Infantry getting them. I think the USMC lagged a few years behind us. Other nationalities, I don't know about.

In game, things are bad in that timeframe, but I could see an argument to field them anyway to increase troop survivability and help the more poorly trained replacements to shoot better since their training would be rushed. YMMV, though.

Bottom line though, you could logically explain it.

[Gorbag]

I just had a brain thingie on this subject, so I thought I'd comment here.

The Israelis got big into red dot sights in the late 80s/early 90s. I can't for the life of me remember the name of the equipment they used, but I'm sure it's out there in the interwebnets. Aimpoint also got going in the early 90s (makers of the more popular red dot sights), so the technology was already existent, just not mature. I suppose you could argue within the T2K timeframe about US units acting in concert with Israelis, seeing the cool gear, and making a case for general issue (if not some trading/midnight requisitions for personal use).

[Eddie]

Aimpoint also got going in the early 90s (makers of the more popular red dot sights), so the technology was already existent, just not mature.

Please don't think I'm trying to come across as a know-it-all and correct you, I'm trying to support your comments.

Aimpoint was actually around in the late 60s. The Son Tay Raiders took Aimpoint's first 200 produced sights for that mission. In those days they were designed for shotguns though, not military weapons.

One of the benefits of being at Benning was getting to talk to a bunch of the Raiders who now have contractor jobs on post (not PMC contractors, Range Control, doctrine writers and other office-type jobs). Apparently COL Simons heard about them and took all 200 of their first production run, then taped them to the carrying handles of their rifles. Nighttime accuracy went from 10-15% to about 75% according to the commander of the Greenleaf element.

Definitely a real world precedent, with supporting data, for an ambitious commander in Twilight (2000 or 2013), to submit an Operational Needs Statement to purchase red-dot sights for his battalion/brigade prior to the real world acceptance and issue in the late 90s. Then the whole issue of "general issue" is avoided.

[natehale1971]

okay.... i know this isn't part of the subject header, but i have a question about silencers. Can the silencer be built into a barrel and help with accuracy of the rifle, smg or pistol? I ask this out of an idea for a bullpup type series of weapons for my 2300ad campaign (image based off of some Ghost in the Shell and Appleseed weapons).

[Legbreaker]

OOOOO! I love Ghost in the Shell and Appleseed! Such awesome big guns and who can resist power armour!?

I rather doubt integral suppressors, etc will do much for the accuracy of the weapon. Barrel length and matching the number of twists to the ammo it's to fire is about the only real way you'll have any real effect.

[natehale1971]

OOOOO! I love Ghost in the Shell and Appleseed! Such awesome big guns and who can resist power armour!?

I rather doubt integral suppressors, etc will do much for the accuracy of the weapon. Barrel length and matching the number of twists to the ammo it's to fire is about the only real way you'll have any real effect.

Yup! Shiro does some good stuff (and actually does the technical drawings to back up what he's designed).

Can the silencer have the rifling as part of it? or does that defeat the purpose of the silencer?

[Legbreaker]

You could rifle the interior of the silencer, but as they're usually composed of lots of baffles it wouldn't do any good. Far better in my opinion to keep the barrel and silencer as seperate units, at least for calculating accuracy, muzzle velocity, etc.
As silencers tend to wear out faster than barrels, it might be more cost effective to have them as seperate units too. Perhaps not able to be removed in the field, but certainly back in the workshop with the right tools.

[Gorbag]

Please don't think I'm trying to come across as a know-it-all and correct you, I'm trying to support your comments.

Aimpoint was actually around in the late 60s. The Son Tay Raiders took Aimpoint's first 200 produced sights for that mission. In those days they were designed for shotguns though, not military weapons.

One of the benefits of being at Benning was getting to talk to a bunch of the Raiders who now have contractor jobs on post (not PMC contractors, Range Control, doctrine writers and other office-type jobs). Apparently COL Simons heard about them and took all 200 of their first production run, then taped them to the carrying handles of their rifles. Nighttime accuracy went from 10-15% to about 75% according to the commander of the Greenleaf element.

Definitely a real world precedent, with supporting data, for an ambitious commander in Twilight (2000 or 2013), to submit an Operational Needs Statement to purchase red-dot sights for his battalion/brigade prior to the real world acceptance and issue in the late 90s. Then the whole issue of "general issue" is avoided.

No worries...information is good.

And I had no idea those were Aimpoints on the Raiders' guns. Wow. Learn something new everyday.

[Eddie]

Yeah, I've posted about it a coupla times on other forums, but during OCS, our OCS Ball, Infantry Officers Basic Course, and the Maneuver Captain's Career Course, each of those Battalions brought in MAJ (Ret.) Dan Turner, the commander of the Greenleaf Element of the Son Tay Raid and he would give a little history of the raid, geared to the different levels of expertise. As the level of professional education increased, so did the relevance of the questions. After each, there was time allotted for handshaking and individual questions as well. If you ever get the chance, you should definitely talk to him.

Then a couple of other times we got to meet other Raiders as well, one of the most interesting was when I was talking to my dad about it in a restaurant in Athens, Alabama. Some guy overheard us and came and introduced himself as one of the NCOs in the Blueboy element. I've had no way to verify him since, but he definitely talked the talk enough to convince me, which is pretty difficult to do as I consider myself a pretty good Poser Hunter.

But, I'll quit threadjacking now and return you back to your regularly scheduled programming...

[B.T.]

Hi Eddie!

From my point of view your info was good and helpful. And minor threadjacking can get you even more input and newer ideas!

[weswood]

In game, things are bad in that timeframe, but I could see an argument to field them anyway to increase troop survivability and help the more poorly trained replacements to shoot better since their training would be rushed. YMMV, though.

What does YMMV stand for? It's new to me.

[Eddie]

Your mileage may vary.

[Twilight2000v3MM]

You could rifle the interior of the silencer, but as they're usually composed of lots of baffles it wouldn't do any good. Far better in my opinion to keep the barrel and silencer as seperate units, at least for calculating accuracy, muzzle velocity, etc.
As silencers tend to wear out faster than barrels, it might be more cost effective to have them as seperate units too. Perhaps not able to be removed in the field, but certainly back in the workshop with the right tools.

Can't rifle a suppressor. You would have a swiss cheese can after about 5-6 rounds.

[Legbreaker]

Exactly. While you can file lands into the baffles, it's virtually pointless and potentially dangerous.

[B.T.]

M16 variants

Oh no, it's that old optics thing again.

But I am really uncertain about several facts concerning the variants of the M16 in the T2k universe.

That's what I think is correct:
The standard rifle for all the US combat troops is the M16A2. I assume, a small contingent of M4 carbines has been issued. The majority is of the first production type, with the new handguard.
Another model would be the M4 or M4A1 MWS, the one with the rails.
The SOPMOD block 1 is in use, but only in very limited numbers.

I've read several things about the M16A3: Now, what is it? Is it a M16A2 variant with the full-auto option but with a fixed rear-sight/carrying handle, or is a flat top?

Next question: When have the M16 MWS variants been fielded? Or when were the rails for the long barrel rifle variants put into production or use?

I am well aware, that a lot more variants would be in use, especially the M16A2 carbine variants (M-733, M-723, maxbe even older XM-177En). Civilian versions will also be encountered.

How easy (or not) would it be, to equip the older versions with the A1-style handguards with the parts of the SOPMOD kits?
Would all the M4 variants be flat-tops?

I know, it is a very complicated issue, so I could really use a little help on this.

Any constructive income is welcome!