The people of Poland

[B.T.]

Leg,

the born Polish, which I talked to in the last years, were between 40 and 50 (At the time, I talked to them!). Although I did not tell them, that I asked them because I play a "strange" (from Polish point of view!) RPG, they all shared the same overall arguments. And all of them had served in the Polish Forces. Granted - nowadays they make their living in Germany, therefore we can assume that they are benevolent to the Germans or the BRD, but I still would say that the majority was more anti-Soviet than anti-Western.

You are right in your argumentation, that the West/NATO did more havoc to Poland. That's why a lot of Polish people will hate people from the West. But I do not see this as the opinion of the vast majority.

The whole situation is quite complicated.

And, Leg, I've meant, what I've written in my signature. I don't want to make someone angry. So, if you think I try to upset you - I don't, trust me!!

[Rainbow Six]

Sorry, my previous contributions to this thread have been made from work, so have, by necessity, had to be a bit on the brief side...

I think you could make convincing arguments for both points of view. Legbreaker's point that NATO caused the most damage in the 1997 nuclear exchange is a perfectly good one (I may be mistaken but I think it was Trident missiles fired from a Royal Navy submarine that did for Warsaw). However, the use of propaganda has been mentioned several times in this thread, so I'd say it's possible that NATO propagandists might try to put the blame for the destruction of Poland onto the Soviets (whilst at the same time the Soviets are blaming NATO). How widely each side's propaganda is believed by the other is one of the many unknowns when considering this topic.

I think the Polish Government in Exile / Free Polish Congress / whatever you want to call it might enjoy a (very) brief flourish at the start of 1997 but would be pretty much out of the equation by the summer of that year (although I would expect it to serve as the main mouth piece for NATO propaganda in Poland until then). One point to consider is how few military units actually declared for it (two Border Guards Brigades iirc, but most of the Army remains loyal throughout most of the War, and when they do start to defect it is to local Governments such as Krakow and Silesia).

I have spent time in Poland with work; unlike BT I've never engaged in a direct conversation with a Pole that started "So, I play this RPG where your country is nuked to Hell...", however I have spoken with Poles about the communist system, and one theme that I felt came across repeatedly was that communism encouraged conformity...you didn't stand out from the crowd, didn't put your head above the parapet...in a work environment you certainly didn't suggest ways to do things that deviated from the established procedure...basically you didn't display any individual initiative – you did what you were told. I just don't see people like that rising up in mass revolt in 1997 (or later)...they were too indoctrinated (for lack of a better word), and as noted above, the Army remained loyal, which I think would be an influencing factor in any revolt.

That said, overall I remain inclined to agree with Targan. By the summer of 2000 I think most would be neither Pro Pact nor Pro NATO.

One more point I forgot in my original post, is that the locals, and it really doesn't matter what nationality they are, are likely to be friendly, or at least grudgingly supportive, of whatever military unit is in the vicinity, especially if they're making no signs of moving on. By being actively hostile, even passively resistant, they will invite the wrath of that heavily armed unit.

I think this is a very good point; I think the average Pole would have to be pragmatic about their situation and by the summer of 2000 any loyalty to pre War Governments would largely have ceased to exist - those living close to NATO cantonments, would ally with the NATO troops that are most likely keeping the marauders at bay, providing opportunities for employment, etc, whilst those close to Warsaw Pact Cantonments would side with the Warsaw Pact troops. Personally I don't think it's a case of allying with one side or the other– the average civilian simply has to look out for himself. It reminds me of a line in a Mike and the Mechanics song – "Swear allegiance to the flag, whatever flag they offer" (in this respect I don't think the Poles are going to be any different from a number of other nationalities throughout Europe).

As others have said it's certainly complicated...

[helbent4]

And, Leg, I've meant, what I've written in my signature. I don't want to make someone angry. So, if you think I try to upset you - I don't, trust me!!

BT,

My friend, for all the many faults and defects with regards to Legbreaker's personality (and for all I know, personal hygiene) I don't believe he would ever get upset at well-reasoned polite comments such as yours, even in disagreement. Please be reassured he just likes a good (but friendly) argument.

Legbreaker:

Personally, I just like the idea of some kind of Polish counter-weight to either PacWar or NATO running roughshod (literally, now horses are back) over their country.

Tony

[natehale1971]

It was Timeline 2.x that had Germany invading Poland over ethnic Germans refusing their orders... the entire 'Magnificent Seven' (because there was seven of them) comments during the short stories that illustrated the world setting.

[Legbreaker]

I'm just glad we've got a spirited debate going on. Everyone's opinions and thoughts are equally valid as far as I'm concerned and I'm always open to being proven wrong.
I, and many others may disagree, but if we can't express that disagreement in a civil manner then why are we bothering

[helbent4]

I'm just glad we've got a spirited debate going on. Everyone's opinions and thoughts are equally valid as far as I'm concerned and I'm always open to being proven wrong.

I, and many others may disagree, but if we can't express that disagreement in a civil manner then why are we bothering

Leg,

Certainly, it's all in good fun!

It's good to keep in mind in this case there is no "right" or "wrong" answer. It's all a matter of opinion (even technical matters and facts can be disputed) so nothing will be proved either way.

Tony

[natehale1971]

I'm just glad we've got a spirited debate going on. Everyone's opinions and thoughts are equally valid as far as I'm concerned and I'm always open to being proven wrong.
I, and many others may disagree, but if we can't express that disagreement in a civil manner then why are we bothering

Exactly! (yes.... said in the voice of Chris Lambert's character from the first "Mortal Combat" movie)

I'm a political news junkie, and the biggest thing that irritates me more than anything else, is when they start calling you a racist, bigot and homophobe just because you believe in individual rights over collective rights. I elevate the individual PERSON over the group, because individuals are unique and precious. Groups are composed of... well, groups are just a mass of nameless and faceless blobs. Easily manipulated and exploited for nefarious means as history has shown time and time again.

[helbent4]

Leg,

I should also mention I'm not basing my views about Polish support for the Home Army/Solidarność completely out of thin air. Defections and even material support from the government (in this case, the communist government) or other warlord's troops closely resemble that in other popular struggles, such as the FMLN in El Salvador, Sandinistas in Nicaragua, Viet Minh and Viet Cong in Vietnam, etc. To a degree perhaps westerners are so used to being on the losing side of that equation it seems impossible it could work for us (or at least Polish PCs).

Solidarność enjoyed very wide (almost overwhelming) popularity before the Twilight War, and who's to say an updated version of the Home Army wouldn't enjoy the same respect during the war as it did during WWII Granted, Solidarność/Home Army are not going to be as well-organised or centrally supported as these other movements, but that would be balanced out by an equally disorganised/despotic opposition. The hypothetical Home Army may not have inspired entire unit defections (other than the Border Guard Brigades), but the Viet Cong/ARVN did not have any former ARVN units as part of its TO&E, either, but could not be judged as ineffective.

Therefore, in the context of a popular struggle, I think it's not out of the question that Polish PCs affiliated with at least Solidarność and possibly some kind of Home Army could expect or at least hope for defections or support from the population. Support for NATO or the Russians, not so much, I agree!

In other words, I don't think Poles (as PCs) should be lumped in with NATO/PacWar with regards to expectations of defection/local support.

Tony

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I tend to agree that GDW's idea that various large groups of the Polish military/people would be pro-NATO is a bit idealistic (and even downright silly in some cases). Some Polish people I've spoken to have found it insulting that it was thought that they would be so pro-Western that they would just 'jump ship' to NATO given any chance to.
I think the Polish peoples loyalties would not be so much NATO or the Soviet Union as much as it would be: -
1. Poland
2. the Catholic church
3. the Communist ideal
4. WarPac/WTO
I think for many of them, NATO and Russia would not even really enter the equation.

The argument for the Communist State.
Under communism, everyone was entitled to free medical care & education and everyone was given an equal chance to advance themselves within reason (there were no blocks to women becoming engineers for example, but they weren't going to be allowed to be fighter pilots although any peasant farm boy/girl could become a high-ranking research doctor or so on).

The flipside of this is that conformity was encouraged and even today, Polish people generally are still quite conservative and conformist (try being a male with long hair even in 2010, you'll be treated like you're a girl by many men both young and old). Polish women were and still are generally expected to get an education, meet their future husband at school/university, work for a few years, get married & have children - and you are expected to stay married for life.

I agree that various individuals and even groups will be pro-NATO, pro-Western, pro-WarPact, pro-isolationist or whatever and so on but one of the primary sources for propaganda seems to be ignored. Poland is Catholic, if the Pope made an appeal to the Polish people to support NATO, there would be people who would do it, even those who ardently supported the communist regime. The power of the church in Poland is typically underestimated in most game treatments.

[Raellus]

Although I am mixing universes here- the alternate u of T2K and our current reality (or is it)- I think that it's worth noting that, when given the choice, post-Cold War Poland chose to align with the West, forsaking the Russian Federation. That's cutting ties on a 50-year long association to join up with a 50-year rival power bloc. Isn't Poland currently a part of NATO Yes, they are allied with the Germans and the U.S.- their historical nemesis and their main Cold War adversary respectively. Russia was not pleased at all at Poland's decision but the Poles did it anyway. Although I am not suggesting that Cold War Poland would have welcomed a NATO invasion with open arms, I don't think that they were as pro-communist/pro-Soviet/anti-West as some are suggesting either.

[Legbreaker]

I have grave doubts that the church would direct Poles to side for NATO, afterall, Poland is essentially defending itself from an invading force.
We also have the important fact that the Vatican is slap bang in the middle of Italy - an opponent of NATO and allied to the PACT at least by default. Admittedly the Vatican isn't a part of Italy, but when you're surrounded like that you do have to think about the potential consequences of your words....

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I have grave doubts that the church would direct Poles to side for NATO, afterall, Poland is essentially defending itself from an invading force.
We also have the important fact that the Vatican is slap bang in the middle of Italy - an opponent of NATO and allied to the PACT at least by default. Admittedly the Vatican isn't a part of Italy, but when you're surrounded like that you do have to think about the potential consequences of your words....

And I don't disagree with you.
I'm not saying the Pope would tell the Poles to side with NATO, but if NATO were to use the idea of it, it could be the thing that sways some Polish groups to side with NATO (or at least not oppose them).
It needs to be considered that the Pope was Polish and the cult of Pope John Paul II is still strong to this day (they've named streets, parks and so on after him in many towns & cities)

[pmulcahy11b]

This could be the opening for a GM to put a high-level, charismatic religious figure NPC into his campaign -- whether in Poland or not.

[Rainbow Six]

I have grave doubts that the church would direct Poles to side for NATO, afterall, Poland is essentially defending itself from an invading force.
We also have the important fact that the Vatican is slap bang in the middle of Italy - an opponent of NATO and allied to the PACT at least by default. Admittedly the Vatican isn't a part of Italy, but when you're surrounded like that you do have to think about the potential consequences of your words....

And I don't disagree with you.
I'm not saying the Pope would tell the Poles to side with NATO, but if NATO were to use the idea of it, it could be the thing that sways some Polish groups to side with NATO (or at least not oppose them).
It needs to be considered that the Pope was Polish and the cult of Pope John Paul II is still strong to this day (they've named streets, parks and so on after him in many towns & cities)

I agree with both of you - the Pope would be unlikely to openly support either side, but various factions (not just NATO but also people such as King Julian in Silesia) might falsely claim to have such support to increase their credibility.

Something similar came up before on this thread...

http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.phpt=1448&highlight=pope&page=2

[pmulcahy11b]

Did Rome get nuked Is the Pope even alive in T2K Considering his fragile health even at that time, would he have been in a position to put in any two cents about the war