The location of the Pope during the Twilight War

[B.T.]

I have not voted, yet.

If JP II. is the pope in the Twilight war, we should take in account, that he was the Pope, that travelled the most. In Wikipedia is an article on his travels.
Some of these travels might not have the same destination as IRL! In the later half of the 90ies the Pope visited severals states in the former Eastern Bloc - I don't think this had happened in T2k. But he would have been travelling to other States/countries.
Depending on his location (Choose your destination of the Popes "tour"!) he might stay at that place, when things get dense in Europe - Brazil is not unlikely (Dragoon mentioned Brazil before!).
If the Pope is in Europe, I can imagine, he'd like to stay in Rome, but leaves for an uncertain ammount of time to get back there, if the situation is more stable.

I think, France is not a bad destination - there had been Popes residing in Avignon (I don't remember who said in in the "People of Poland"-threat, but although some of the anti-Popes spent their time in Avignon, there had also been "official" Popes in Avignon!).
Switzerland is an option, another place in Italy is another one.
Still another country come to my mind: Ireland! It has a catholic population and it is not that likely as an aim for nukes!
If the Pope sees his new residence as a place of a temporary exile, he could stay allmost anywhere!

The idea of a SpecFor team trying to capture the Pope is a nice one. Maybe I'll have a try on this, too.

Edit: It was "Adm. Lee" in No. 35 of the "People of Poland" who mentioned Avignon as being not likely. Just in case someone was asking!

[Rainbow Six]

I wonder if the Vatican has a bomb/fallout shelter. My guess would be that it does but I'm not sure how one would find out for sure.

Apparently it does (I googled it...)

http://www.nytimes.com/1982/02/22/world/around-the-world-vatican-plans-to-build-bomb-shelter-for-library.html

I'm thinking that in light of that article I should have added a fifth poll option (relocates to another site in Italy) which in hindsight I would have voted for.

It simply never occured to me as an option until I read the article again yesterday, but in hindsight, I, too, might have opted for it.

Although I see the attraction of Switzerland as a destination, I don't think it would be wise during a nuclear war...

Leg, you make valid points. Whilst I opted for Switzerland in the poll, I do think it's possible that the Papal party might move to Switzerland (or elsewhere in Italy) as a short term move in the summer of 1997 when the nukes start flying and then move on sometime in 1998 to another location where they could stay for a longer term (basically the duration of the War plus a period afterwards).

I think main contenders for this long term location would be either France or Spain. I did think about Brazil, but there's a lot of petrochem industry in Brazil, so I think it would be high on the list of neutral nations to be targetted. Another possibility might be Argentina. I might be mistaken, but I seem to recall Brazil and Argentina go to war with each other at some point, so that might also have a bearing on the matter - why leave Switzerland for Argentina if Argentina is now a war zone On the other hand, the Pope might have arrived there before that war broke out.

[Slappy]

Doing a little poking around and thinking on this this morning.

It's also not clear how long JPII would have lived in T2k. IRL he lived to 2005, but apparently he began suffering from Parkinsons Disease as early as 1991. I'm sure that the pontiff would have had the best care available in '97-'99, but I don't know that it would have been enough in its degraded state to keep an increasingly frail man in his late 70s alive.

Points to the interesting mission mentioned by Rainbow Six to bury the pope, or the intrigue surrounding the election of a new pope after the death of JPII. The intrigue in the College of Cardinals would probably make the efforts to reconstitute the US Congress look like a tea party. Possible mission here with the players helping to support or thwart one of the candidates, either with violence or by retrieving some item, document or witness to swing the decision.

My guess is the the death would actually lead to the election of several popes. The French would be mad to not have one, there would be someone in Rome claiming the title, likely one or two elsewhere in Italy/Switzerland and possibly Brazil. Anywhere you can get 3-4 cardinals together you can have an election of some sort. AlsosSeems that any Bishop with a former papal estate and 100 guys with guns who say he's the Pope has at least a passing claim to the title, at least locally.

[WallShadow]

JPII in America

I entertained the idea that his Holiness had been on a goodwill tour in the US when the European theatre went nuclear. The papal aircraft and a body double returned to Rome; however, the Pope's advisors had actually convinced him to stay put in the US, outside most likely target areas. He chose to set up a low-key anonymous residence at the National Shrine of Our Lady of Czestochowa in Doylestown, PA. It's located far enough from Philly and the Delaware River targets to have survived intact. Dressed as regular clergy, he helped the shrine staff organize and operate an enclave to shelter, feed, and medically treat the refugees.

Surprisingly, the enclave has had virtually no problems with raiders or marauders thus far. Then, the Swiss Guard are being assisted by assigned bodyguards from State Department's Bureau of Diplomatic Security and the odd Catholic member of the SEALs/Delta Force/etc. They patrol and overwatch a large radius from the refuge. Lots of things can blow up, breakdown, or perhaps die in their sleep far enough away and in such a convincing manner to redirect the potential attackers, helping to dissuade such riff-raff from coming too close.

(Wild rumors filter out about miraculous cures by a holy monk, and holy apparitions delivering holy vengeance against ill-intentioned interlopers.)

[Raellus]

I like your creativity WallShadow but I wonder if the Pope wouldn't stay closer to home during a potentially global crisis like the full-scale Soviet invasion of China. It seems an almost inappropriate time to leave the Vatican and go on a goodwill tour of the U.S.

On the other hand, perhaps his trip was diplomatic. I'm not sure what his goal would be, though.

[mikeo80]

I like your creativity WallShadow but I wonder if the Pope wouldn't stay closer to home during a potentially global crisis like the full-scale Soviet invasion of China. It seems an almost inappropriate time to leave the Vatican and go on a goodwill tour of the U.S.

On the other hand, perhaps his trip was diplomatic. I'm not sure what his goal would be, though.

I agree with many of the posters here that PROBABLY JPII is the Pope, he would PROBABLY stay close to the Vatican, and the Swiss Guard would have a FAST jet ready to take His Holiness OUT OF TOWN if circumstances dictated it. (Anything I have read about the Swiss Guard, they are SWORN to die defending the Pope. But these are pragmatic men. If it looked to the Commander of the Swiss Guard that Rome was going to take a nuke in the shorts, JPII would be GONE....NOW!!!!!)

A visit to the USA would not be JPII's style, IMHO. THe man he portrayed on the world stage was a caring but very doctrinal parrish priest. If Europe is going up in flames, a Polish Pope would not leave HIS people.

(CHA-CHING)

And that's my two cents worth.

Mike

[kato13]

For what it is worth in the real world the Pope was traveling outside of Italy for about 40 days in 1997 (adding a bit to the list below to account for travel time). However 11 days of that was in Poland which probably would not happen in in any T2k time-line.

http://www.travelnotes.org/travel-write/travel_articles/general/farewell_pope_john_paul/97-98.htm

Edit
Also I can edit polls so I added "Relocates within Italy". If you want to change your existing answer to that, just post a note with what your previous selection was (so I can shift the numbers around).

[natehale1971]

For what it is worth in the real world the Pope was traveling outside of Italy for about 40 days in 1997 (adding a bit to the list below to account for travel time). However 11 days of that was in Poland which probably would not happen in in any T2k time-line.

http://www.travelnotes.org/travel-wr...paul/97-98.htm

Actually Kato, I think John Paul II would have gone into Poland in an attempt to promote peace, and get Polish support for getting in the way of a communist victory and independence for his people. He was a very amazing man of principles. I have a feeling in the world of T2k with the Soviet Union and collapse of Communism happening, JPII would have fought to remain healthy and vibrant so he could remain as a bedrock against communism. Many felt that his declining health came from his feeling that he was finally ABLE to stop fighting, to stop standing up against such a major threat to world peace and liberty.

[kato13]

Actually Kato, I think John Paul II would have gone into Poland in an attempt to promote peace, and get Polish support for getting in the way of a communist victory and independence for his people. He was a very amazing man of principles. I have a feeling in the world of T2k with the Soviet Union and collapse of Communism happening, JPII would have fought to remain healthy and vibrant so he could remain as a bedrock against communism. Many felt that his declining health came from his feeling that he was finally ABLE to stop fighting, to stop standing up against such a major threat to world peace and liberty.

I see your points, but I cannot see him being allowed to go into an active (and probably the highest intensity ever) war zone. What if a NATO (Or god forbid German) unit accidentally kills him. I can see him fighting communism in his own way with speeches or emissaries, but at this point he is the leader of the entire Catholic Church not just Europe, so I could see those around him convincing him that he has to stay out of harms way.

[natehale1971]

I see your points, but I cannot see him being allowed to go into an active (and probably the highest intensity ever) war zone. What if a NATO (Or god forbid German) unit accidentally kills him. I can see him fighting communism in his own way with speeches or emissaries, but at this point he is the leader of the entire Catholic Church not just Europe, so I could see those around him convincing him that he has to stay out of harms way.

Very true points... But knowing JPII, he'd go into the areas that are in NATO Hands with an armed escort of the Swiss Guard (thus providing a way that he'd not get accidentally killed by either side). JPII was a very... well, headstrong man. Even if not going into Poland he could have gone into East Germany on the Polish-E.German border speaking at rallies and the like.

Hell, this would actually work good for an adventure. That when the nukes started flying he was doing his tour and was hustled away for his safety. BUT NO ONE KNOWS WHERE he was hustled too. Only the Swiss Guard who got him to safety knows exactly where he is.

[Targan]

Also I can edit polls so I added "Relocates within Italy". If you want to change your existing answer to that, just post a note with what your previous selection was (so I can shift the numbers around).

Thanks Kato, please change my vote to "Relocates within Italy". While I'm not a total slave to canon, and T:2300 is fairly "loose canon" anyway (see what I did there LOL), the contention in Challenge #42 page 26 that Perugia became the new Papal City seems reasonable to me.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

And whether we like it or not, Twilight: 2000 did actually grow from 2300 so it's not unreasonable to assume that they can both take a little something from each other to make them more compatible with each other.

[Legbreaker]

I agree that the situation in 2300 should be considered canon. There's roughly 300 years of history between the two, much of which is written by the victor (whoever they may be), which leaves a lot of room for interpretation.

The time from launch to impact of a strategic missile is what, 30-60 minutes give or take At the shorter end that doesn't leave a lot of reaction time to get the Pope the hell out of the Vatican. Estimate 5-10 minutes from receiving the warning to having him on a helicopter bound for the airport. Add in a few more minutes if alls going well for flight time, then say five more minutes to swap over to a fixed wing and be in the air - and that's JUST in the air, not actually having cleared the area as yet. So, 20 minutes has passed already (on a good day).

Now, how many missiles are going to be detected at the moment of launch Shall we add in a bit more time to consider confirmation of the launch Time is getting a bit tight now...

That 30-60 minutes mentioned above is ICBM flight time. A launch from say Czechoslovakia against Rome (if it's the Soviets setting up NATO for the fall (or a quick jaunt across the Alps from southern Germany is going to be a LOT faster.

Bearing that in mind, once nukes start being used away from the front lines, the Pope would be MAD to stay put.

[pmulcahy11b]

The time from launch to impact of a strategic missile is what, 30-60 minutes give or take

IIRC, the launch of an SLBM (submarine-launched ballistic missile) from a boomer to impact is only 3-8 minutes.

[natehale1971]

The time from launch to impact of a strategic missile is what, 30-60 minutes give or take At the shorter end that doesn't leave a lot of reaction time to get the Pope the hell out of the Vatican. Estimate 5-10 minutes from receiving the warning to having him on a helicopter bound for the airport. Add in a few more minutes if alls going well for flight time, then say five more minutes to swap over to a fixed wing and be in the air - and that's JUST in the air, not actually having cleared the area as yet. So, 20 minutes has passed already (on a good day).

Now, how many missiles are going to be detected at the moment of launch Shall we add in a bit more time to consider confirmation of the launch Time is getting a bit tight now...

That 30-60 minutes mentioned above is ICBM flight time. A launch from say Czechoslovakia against Rome (if it's the Soviets setting up NATO for the fall (or a quick jaunt across the Alps from southern Germany is going to be a LOT faster.

Bearing that in mind, once nukes start being used away from the front lines, the Pope would be MAD to stay put.

Very true.. It would be better for the Pope to be evacuated from the Vatican via helicopter instead of jet. They'd be able to fly the helio OUT of the blast area in time. Thus the relocation of the Pope to somewhere in the Italian Republic or the Swiss Confederation works good.

Though I have a feeling that the Vatican had a retreat/BOL (Bug-Out Location) that they'd get the Pope and Cardinals too at the first sign of something going down. I read somewhere that the Vatican has a subterranean rail system they use for mail... perhaps they used the construction of that to cover the construction of a high-speed means of getting the Pope and others out of the Vatican ASAP.

Thanks to the link we were given earlier, we know that in 1982 a bomb shelter was built in the Vatican... And considering the priceless nature of the things being stored and protected there, we can surmise that it would take a direct hit to destroy it.