Mongoose Publishing and Twilight 2000

[Legbreaker]

This approach is exactly how I'd like to see a new version of T2K come out. Leave the time at the year 2000 just tweak the game materials to include some IRL events.
One thing that I personally think is becoming more and more of a problem as time rolls on is the "retrofitting" of technology into the classic T2K timeline. How many times have we seen items only available in the 21st century being trotted out by players in a game
I mean feel free to pull in whatever you want in a game set in say 2010, but items not even thought of until 2000+ in classic T2K

[natehale1971]

The system is broken. I can't deny that. Let's slash some more of its funding and see if that helps. All I can do is keep busting my ass to try to help my students learn something while they're in my classroom. If I work hard enough, maybe our nation's standardized test score will go up a little and my pay won't be cut again this year. I should be thankful I haven't been permanently RIF'ed yet. Thanks for the morale boost, Ed.

And TEACHER'S pay shouldn't be cut. It's the pay of the administrators and Union Bosses who are taking all the funding AWAY from class rooms... all the while claiming to be getting more funding for those classrooms.

They cut the pay or fire the teachers doing the jobs they are suppose to do, while they are living the fat life.

Like you said.. the system is broken. And that's what Eddie had said. Not that individual teachers are the problem. It's the teachers unions and Education Departments MISMANAGEMENT that is the problem.

Look at my post up a few, about how the USSR SHOULD have been one of the most prosperous countries in history thanks to the massive amounts of resources at their fingertips. But proper management of resources can make even someone who is skint live like a king within their means, but improper management can turn a king into a pauper.

[natehale1971]

This approach is exactly how I'd like to see a new version of T2K come out. Leave the time at the year 2000 just tweak the game materials to include some IRL events.
One thing that I personally think is becoming more and more of a problem as time rolls on is the "retrofitting" of technology into the classic T2K timeline. How many times have we seen items only available in the 21st century being trotted out by players in a game
I mean feel free to pull in whatever you want in a game set in say 2010, but items not even thought of until 2000+ in classic T2K

If we extend the timeline past 2000, there are a lot of things we have now that would have still be developed. Having the slow build up of a hot war starting in the year 2000, would definitely work... and allow new blood to want to get involved in the game because it's all new take on the Cold War.

Think of our world right now if the Cold War had continued in the manner we've been discussing here. Think of what we would have today if the Cold War was still going on. Yes we'd still be posed at the swordpoint with the Soviets with alot of the same technology we have right now. hell, we might have been able to develop that technology earlier.

[Raellus]

A lot of the criticisms posted here are valid. But it's hard to hear. I take pride in my work and it's tough to detach myself as an individual from the institution of which I am a part. It's a really hard job. Have you ever tried to motivate, inspire, and educate 150 15-18 year-olds on a daily basis It's rough sometimes. It can feel like a thankless job when I see my paycheck shrink on an annual basis while the public pins most of American society's on my employer. If only they knew what it was like...

[helbent4]

Actually Tony... it was Gorby who volunteered total nuclear disarmament, but ONLY if the US abandoned SDI. And as much as Reagan hated Nuclear weapons... he didn't want to abandon the idea of SDI because to many OTHERS in the world had gotten the nuclear bomb genie to visit them.

Nate,

By gosh, I never knew that! Apparently it was complicated; the Soviets first proposed eliminating INF weapons systems in Europe and reducing Strategic missiles by 50%, the US countered with all ballistic missiles eliminated within 10 years but retaining SDI (and sharing research), the counter-counter offer was no out-of-lab SDI research within those 10 years, and there things fell apart due to slight miscalculations on both sides.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reykjav%C3%ADk_Summit

Either way, both sides at that time seemed to accept in principle almost complete disarmament and it could have happened. In fact, such a concession could have eventually cost Gorbachev his job before he let the Iron Curtain drop, or at least tied his hands so that (say) he didn't have the latitude to let the Soviet client states go their own ways.

Regarding current technology and T2K, it mainly takes some spine on the part of the GM to make sure things are Jake and consistant. Much of what we use now was available in embryonic form in the 90's and the buildup to war would have accelerated weapons technology considerably. Most of the time the difference would be in advanced information technology and networking (not generally an issue due to battlefield attrition and EMP) and weapons/vehicles, mainly an issue of numbers. (What is generally reflected on Paul's site.)

Tony

[pmulcahy11b]

And TEACHER'S pay shouldn't be cut. It's the pay of the administrators and Union Bosses who are taking all the funding AWAY from class rooms... all the while claiming to be getting more funding for those classrooms.

Teachers should be be highly-paid -- at least four to five times what they are paid now, if not more. Their job is hard, our educational system sucks, and we'd attract more and better teachers if they were paid in accordance to the difficulties of their job. And in accordance to the importance of their job.

[Legbreaker]

If we extend the timeline past 2000, there are a lot of things we have now that would have still be developed.

Very true. What I'm getting at is the apparently growing habit of pulling what is available now back to a game (versions 1.0 and 2.x) set almost a generation ago*. It's a bit like trying to justify M-48 tanks being involved in D-Day....

*That makes me feel soooo old!

[natehale1971]

A lot of the criticisms posted here are valid. But it's hard to hear. I take pride in my work and it's tough to detach myself as an individual from the institution of which I am a part. It's a really hard job. Have you ever tried to motivate, inspire, and educate 150 15-18 year-olds on a daily basis It's rough sometimes. It can feel like a thankless job when I see my paycheck shrink on an annual basis while the public pins most of American society's on my employer. If only they knew what it was like...

Yes... I have. I REALLY wanted to be a history and art teacher. I have helped motivate and inspire kids to actually look things up when i start talking about the founding of this Republic. yes it does feel like a thankless job. but you also hold the future in your hands when you are teaching those children. Some teachers take that HONOR and trust so seriously as you do, but there are alot of teachers who don't. Who are simply bad teachers, who should have NEVER been given teaching certification. You know that better than we do, because you've had to work with some of them.

Hell, most of us only have knowledge of this from either being parents or having sat in a classroom. And most of us on this forum haven't been in a classroom in 20+ years. I've been going to college and discovered that most of the recent graduates are so.... behind it's not even funny.

They don't know HALF of what we did when we graduated. And it's only been 20 years since i graduated. they aren't even getting civics lessons in class, just indoctrination into 'nanny state' is good and Republicans/Conservatives are all racists who want you to die (yes i can say this because my youngest sister had to put up with a teacher trying to push that on her when she was in school).

We're not attacking YOU or your profession... we're attacking those who have ABUSED their positions, and made your job such the thankless and hard job it's become.

[Fusilier]

It's a really hard job. Have you ever tried to motivate, inspire, and educate 150 15-18 year-olds on a daily basis It's rough sometimes.

Sure is. Sometimes more so than when I was in the infantry.

[natehale1971]

Very true. What I'm getting at is the apparently growing habit of pulling what is available now back to a game (versions 1.0 and 2.x) set almost a generation ago*. It's a bit like trying to justify M-48 tanks being involved in D-Day....

*That makes me feel soooo old!

Thanks not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about a new game with a slower build up to the nuclear exchanges and game time occurring. Bascily have the Sino-Soviet border war slowly build up to the DDR finding their best troops being used as cannon fodder by the soviet war machine and deciding they want out (along with several other of the satellite states)... have the build up of the war simmer and build up.. a limited nuclear exchange that doesn't knock everyone back to the stone age, but the war is continuing with everyone having to deal with the EMP effects (admit it... EMP with today's tech would really FUCK everything up) as well as protecting the nation form outside forces.

but having the war hit EVERY part of the Globe (including our Aussie and Kiwi friends) is what i'm talking about.

[natehale1971]

Nate,

By gosh, I never knew that! Apparently it was complicated; the Soviets first proposed eliminating INF weapons systems in Europe and reducing Strategic missiles by 50%, the US countered with all ballistic missiles eliminated within 10 years but retaining SDI (and sharing research), the counter-counter offer was no out-of-lab SDI research within those 10 years, and there things fell apart due to slight miscalculations on both sides.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reykjav%C3%ADk_Summit

Either way, both sides at that time seemed to accept in principle almost complete disarmament and it could have happened. In fact, such a concession could have eventually cost Gorbachev his job before he let the Iron Curtain drop, or at least tied his hands so that (say) he didn't have the latitude to let the Soviet client states go their own ways.

Regarding current technology and T2K, it mainly takes some spine on the part of the GM to make sure things are Jake and consistant. Much of what we use now was available in embryonic form in the 90's and the buildup to war would have accelerated weapons technology considerably. Most of the time the difference would be in advanced information technology and networking (not generally an issue due to battlefield attrition and EMP) and weapons/vehicles, mainly an issue of numbers. (What is generally reflected on Paul's site.)

Tony

Exactly... that would allow alot of things to get into. Having that slow build-up with alot of simmering brushfires all around the world all flaring up during the time the campaign setting would start.

My idea for an RP (World War IV: A World in Flames) allowed for Role-play during the Flashpoints period (right before the war starts), during the Brushfires period (alot of little conflicts and low intensity wars all around the globe) to Firestorm period (the entire world is involved in a massive multifront war were some fronts you're fighting against someone, but in another your fighting along side them).

[Raellus]

I like your phased approach, Nate.

In addition to something like that, I'd like to see the next T2K itteration come with more or less generic templates for various apocalyptic event horizons. There'd be one for a global pandemic of sort (reducing the population dramatically but leaving infrastructure largely untouched), one for global climate change (food and water shortages, rising see levels, etc.), one for something that would destroy most electronics (EMP, solar flares), and one for your good old fashioned global thermonuclear war. Hell, you could even throw in an alien invasion or zombie rising. I'm thinking of a tool kit for the creative GM to use in fashioning a near future of his liking. Of course, exhaustive current/near future gear lists are a must as well.

[natehale1971]

I like your phased approach, Nate.

In addition to something like that, I'd like to see the next T2K itteration come with more or less generic templates for various apocalyptic event horizons. There'd be one for a global pandemic of sort (reducing the population dramatically but leaving infrastructure largely untouched), one for global climate change (food and water shortages, rising see levels, etc.), one for something that would destroy most electronics (EMP, solar flares), and one for your good old fashioned global thermonuclear war. Hell, you could even throw in an alien invasion or zombie rising. I'm thinking of a tool kit for the creative GM to use in fashioning a near future of his liking. Of course, exhaustive current/near future gear lists are a must as well.

You bet. and there was a really good RP that took that approach called "Freedom Fighters"... it allowed the GM and players build their own world.

[Snake Eyes]

In addition to something like that, I'd like to see the next T2K itteration come with more or less generic templates for various apocalyptic event horizons. There'd be one for a global pandemic of sort (reducing the population dramatically but leaving infrastructure largely untouched), one for global climate change (food and water shortages, rising see levels, etc.), one for something that would destroy most electronics (EMP, solar flares), and one for your good old fashioned global thermonuclear war. Hell, you could even throw in an alien invasion or zombie rising. I'm thinking of a tool kit for the creative GM to use in fashioning a near future of his liking. Of course, exhaustive current/near future gear lists are a must as well.

Wow, that's really spooky. I was just getting ready to post that in a future revision of the Twilight franchise I wouldn't include a timeline at all, rather a comprehensive pile of resources for a GM to roll-your-own apocalypse with rules and tips for including nukes, pandemic/zombies, asteroid/comet strike, new ice age, economic collapse or a Chinese menu to incorporate elements of all of them. But I hit the back button instead of preview and there your post was.

[Snake Eyes]

Why does timeline matter anyway

Seriously, I ask not only since timeline angst is a recurring centerpoint of conversation around here but also because I played OG 1st ed/ Twilight for years before I ever bothered reading Countdown to Armageddon. It was an entertaining read but not particularly germane to the core concept of "You're soldiers caught behind the lines of a nuclear war." All that stuff with Italy pulling out of NATO is interesting but it just ... didn't ... matter. Deep background, yeah. But it had nothing to do with why the characters were in Poland or solving the immediate problem of whether and how to get out of it. The 2.0/2.2 updates were just as entertaining and ultimately just as irrelevant to actual gameplay.

I understand players want to be able to integrate their characters into the story and the GM needs to know what's what but folks make it sound like opting not to include a detailed orbat and accounting for the month-by-month disposition of every brigade in the global arsenal is some kind of failure. And yeah, I want my guy to be a part of the story, but I can make him a farmboy from Iowa without having to pull out an almanac to research the average rainfall, mean low temperature and consumer price index in order to determine whether his parents could have plausibly produced the crop yield required to afford any siblings.