British TO&E info (split from British Army Equipment...)

[Louied]

Rainbow, IIRC correctly there were the following special tasked bn's

Royal Duties- an Inf. Bn. & Ard. Recce Sqd. For the Queen & Royal Family escort/protection
A Bn. To secure art treausres & gold reserves
A Bn. To support HM's customs & border security (rounding up suspected Soviet agents & persons deemed to threaten security)
A Bn. For escort/protection of HM's govt.

IMC I have the Guards, King's, Queen's, & Prince of Wales's Div.'s add two bn.'s each the Scottish & Light Div. one each (according to Beevor in 'Inside the British Army', in 1990 the Scottish & King's Div.'s were the best recruited while the Queen's & Light were the worst)
As for the Gurkhas they are an almost limitless well (I have the figures @ home of how many apply just for the British Army each year, IIRC it's close to 10,000)

When I get home I will post my infantry ORBAT & my rationale behind it.

Dude UK, I will take whatever you have ! I do have a copy of the History of the RPC 1945-1990 & would like to compare notes. As for the SOHB, please PM me.

[Rainbow Six]

The Cheshires and the Royal Hampshires are listed in the Challenge article on Canada as spending the War in Canada alog with two German Battalions. Personally I've always thought it's a bit unlikely that so many troops from two major belligerent nations would stay in Canada but I suppose one can justify it by saying there were shipping shortages or such like...

I have nuked a few units in my work...most of the London based Guards Bn for a start (in my T2K World 2nd Bn, Grenadiers; I "saved" one Company, who were with the Queen at Sandringham when London was nuked)...also one of the regular Bns assigned to 2nd Inf Bde, who caught it when Dover and Folkestone were hit...the resident Gibraltar Bn...a second Guards Bn in the 1998 strikes (the Windsor based Bn, 1st Coldstreams imT2KW). Also several of the home defence TA Bns...3rd Cheshires and 4RRW but there may be others, and that's just the Infantry...

I've also amalgamated several Bns...for example 3rd and 4th Yorks, who both take a pasting in the 1998 strikes amalgamated into one Bn, (which is reinforced by Italian POWs held at Catterick and judged to be pro NATO). I've also amalgamated several of the 2nd Inf Dvn's TA Bns, e.g. 5 and 7 RAR.

[Rainbow Six]

Rainbow, IIRC correctly there were the following special tasked bn's

Royal Duties- an Inf. Bn. & Ard. Recce Sqd. For the Queen & Royal Family escort/protection
A Bn. To secure art treausres & gold reserves
A Bn. To support HM's customs & border security (rounding up suspected Soviet agents & persons deemed to threaten security)
A Bn. For escort/protection of HM's govt.

Thanks Louie...sounds to me like that would take care of four Guards Bns at the start of the War...I guess one could argue that one of those Bns could perhaps be sent to Europe sometime in the spring of 97 if it was felt there was a greater need for them there...or could stay in the UK.

[dude_uk]

Dude UK, I will take whatever you have ! I do have a copy of the History of the RPC 1945-1990 & would like to compare notes.

I believe that is the same book that I got my info from what i could tell (There might be errors, don't have the book).

Royal Pioneer corps ORBAT

UKLF

23 group (I.e. Battalion) Pioneer
Group HQ
127 (Tancer) Company (Independent)
206 Company
518 Company
522 Company

Training
<oeC" Training Company depot

Territorial Army
34 coy (v)
68 coy (v)

British army of the Rhine

Rheindahlen military base security force (company strength)

70 Company
144 Company
(NOTE: 70 and 144 originally with 8 RCT regiment as Protection group transferred to security duties within BOAR in 1988)

1st British Corps
1(Br) Corps <oe170" defence company

1st armoured Division
Division defence and employment platoon
7th Armoured Brigade defence employment platoon
12th Armoured Brigade defence employment platoon
22nd Armoured Brigade defence employment platoon

3rd armoured Division
Division defence and employment platoon
15th Armoured Brigade defence employment platoon
49th Armoured Brigade defence employment platoon

4th armoured Division
Division defence and employment platoon
11th Armoured Brigade defence employment platoon
20th Armoured Brigade defence employment platoon
19th Infantry Brigade defence employment platoon

Note: Defence employment platoon is (1 officer 24 men)

[Rainbow Six]

Guys, attached spreadsheet is part of what I'm working on.

It'll take me a while to finish off the whole thing (I'm still working on the Regular Artillery, RE, and R Signals as well as the TA) but comments / feedback / questions welcome.

Couple of quick notes

1. I haven't pinned down specific locations / subordinations for the UK based units yet.

2. My 5th Dvn is formed mainly from units pulled back from residential tours of NI and other UK postings, including the School of Infantry Demo Bn. I have it forming at Catterick during 1997, remaining in the UK until summer 1998, during which it was responsible for internal security / disaster relief in NE England, before deploying to Germany from Newcastle.

3. I have created a couple of new Brigades - 10th Inf and 29th. I've also presumed there will be some movement of Bdes within the Divisions following the arrival of the 5th and the formation of II Corps. Main changes are 1st Bde coming under command of 2nd Dvn, replacing 24th Bde who become Corps Troops, and one of the new Bdes (10th) replacing 19th Bde in the 4th Dvn, with 19th Bde becoming Corps Troops.

4. I haven't thought about what to do with 5th Abn Bde yet.

5. Units in italics do not exist IRL

Cheers

[natehale1971]

Could someone post how a British Commonwealth Platoon is set up (ie the positions in it... i know how a squad is set up, but not the entire platoon) I need the information for some of the fan-fiction that I'm writing.

[Legbreaker]

The Australian Plattoon of the period is as follows:

9 man sections which are split into three man groups:

Scout group
No 1 Scout (rifle)
No 2 Scout (rifle)
Section commander (corporal) (rifle)

Gun Group
No 1 gunner (GPMG)
No 2 gunner (assistant) (rifle)
Section 2IC (Lance Corporal) (rifle)

Rifle Group
No 1 Rifleman (Rifle + GL)
No 2 Rifleman (Rifle + LAW)
No 3 Rifleman (Rifle)

Three Sections per plattoon plus a four man PHQ made up of:

Platoon Commander (2nd or 1st Lt) (rifle)
Platoon Sergeant/2IC (rifle)
Signalman (Rifle + manpack radio)
Runner (Rifle) - usually the next Private to be promoted to Lance Corporal

Note that occasionally 10 or even 11 man sections are used (VERY rarely) and the additional men added to the Rifle Group.

[Louied]

Guys thought you might be interested in this:

http://www.subbrit.org.uk/rsg/features/sfs/new_page_1.htm

Which is where i got this:

The Ministry of Defence War Book in the mid-1960s also assigned four battalions for special Government War Book measures oe

1. Special duties towards the Royal Family.
2. Special duties for central government
3. Security of gold reserves and art treasures.
4. Aid to HM Customs and the police in seizing enemy ships and aircraft.

http://www.amazon.com/Secret-State-Whitehall-Cold-War/dp/0141008350/ref=sr_1_1ie=UTF8&qid=1291777536&sr=8-1

A great book which also talks about the "War Book"

[natehale1971]

Does the British Army & other Commonwealth Armies not include an 'organic' field medic as part of the Platoon

The Australian Plattoon of the period is as follows:

9 man sections which are split into three man groups:

Scout group
No 1 Scout (rifle)
No 2 Scout (rifle)
Section commander (corporal) (rifle)

Gun Group
No 1 gunner (GPMG)
No 2 gunner (assistant) (rifle)
Section 2IC (Lance Corporal) (rifle)

Rifle Group
No 1 Rifleman (Rifle + GL)
No 2 Rifleman (Rifle + LAW)
No 3 Rifleman (Rifle)

Three Sections per plattoon plus a four man PHQ made up of:

Platoon Commander (2nd or 1st Lt) (rifle)
Platoon Sergeant/2IC (rifle)
Signalman (Rifle + manpack radio)
Runner (Rifle) - usually the next Private to be promoted to Lance Corporal

Note that occasionally 10 or even 11 man sections are used (VERY rarely) and the additional men added to the Rifle Group.

[Legbreaker]

Australia does not although there is a medic attached to Company HQ.
You might also find one or two members of the plattoon have done the medics course, but that is a secondary role to that of Rifleman or whatever.
Depending on the mission of course a medic (or other speciallist) might be attached, but they're definitely not organic to the plattoon and only hang around for as long as it takes to get the job done.

Assault Pioneers are a good example of this. Although they form their own Plattoon within the Battalion Support Company, they are often broken up into smaller teams, even individuals and used to supervise the infantry on construction projects (such as digging in a Company CP). Once the job is done, back to the Plattoon they go.

[Louied]

OK, here is the Royal Pioneer Corps circa June 1989, gleaned from "The Royal Pioneers 1945-1993 Maj. ER Elliot" and SOHB 1988

BAOR

1 Ard Div. HQ Defence & Employment Plt. (1 Off. + 44 ORS)
3 Ard Div. HQ Defence & Employment Plt. (1 Off. + 44 ORS)
4 Ard Div. HQ Defence & Employment Plt. (1 Off. + 44 ORS)

1st Corps HQ Defence Co. (4 Off. + 78 ORS) @ Bielfeld

4 Ard Bde. HQ Defence & Employment Plt. (1 Off. + 44 ORS)
6 Ard Bde. HQ Defence & Employment Plt. (1 Off. + 44 ORS)
7 Ard Bde. HQ Defence & Employment Plt. (1 Off. + 44 ORS)
11 Ard Bde. HQ Defence & Employment Plt. (1 Off. + 44 ORS)
12 Ard Bde. HQ Defence & Employment Plt. (1 Off. + 44 ORS)
20 Ard Bde. HQ Defence & Employment Plt. (1 Off. + 44 ORS)
22 Ard Bde. HQ Defence & Employment Plt. (1 Off. + 44 ORS)
33 Ard Bde. HQ Defence & Employment Plt. (1 Off. + 44 ORS)

Labour Resource (Corps) ( 2 Off. + 1 SNCO + 5 Civs)
2x Pioneer Labour Support Unit (each 2 Off. + 1 SNCO + 16 Civs)
2x Civilian Work Group (each 280 Civs)

Labour Resource (RCZ) ( 2 Off. + 1 SNCO + 5 Civs)
2x Pioneer Labour Support Unit (each 2 Off. + 1 SNCO + 16 Civs)
2x Civilian Work Group (each 280 Civs)

Rheindahlen Security Force (6 Off. + 210 ORS) formed 10/88 from Weapon Support Group Guard Plt.'s (they escorted the Lance Missiles)

13 Signal Rgt.(Radio) Defence & Employment Trp. ()
28 Signal Rgt. (NORTHAG) Defence & Employment Trp. ()

Berlin Garrison
Garrison Labour Support Force (Mobile) (23 Civs)
14 Indep. Pioneer Civilian Labour Unit ()


UKLF

23 Pioneer Group
HQ (4 Off. + 20 ORS)- Bicester
187 (Tancred) Co. (10 Off.+ 168 ORS)- Tidworth
206 Co. (10 Off.+ 168 ORS)- Long Marston
518 Co. (10 Off.+ 168 ORS)- Bicester
521 Co. (10 Off.+ 168 ORS)- Bicester
522 Co. (10 Off.+ 168 ORS)- Kineton

1 Inf. Bde. HQ Defence & Employment Plt. (22 ORS)
19 Inf. Bde. HQ Defence & Employment Plt. (22 ORS)
5 Abn. Bde. HQ Defence & Employment Plt. (22 ORS)
24 Airmobile Bde. HQ Defence & Employment Plt. (22 ORS)

3 Inf. Bde. HQ Defence & Employment Plt. (22 ORS)
8 Inf. Bde. HQ Defence & Employment Plt. (22 ORS)
39 Inf. Bde. HQ Defence & Employment Plt. (22 ORS)

C Co., Depot The Queen's Div. @ Bassingbourne (Training Unit)

9 Signal Rgt. (Radio) Special Support Det. (40 ORS)- Cyprus

TA

CVHQ
34 Co. (V) () to UKMF
68 Co. (V) () to BAOR RCZ
79 Co. (V) () to BAOR RCZ

11 Pioneer Civilian Labour Unit(V) ()
12 Pioneer Civilian Labour Unit(V) ()

Pioneer Labour Support Unit (Mobile) (V) () to UKMF

[dude_uk]

British infantry Platoon, from about 1988 when the SA80 was introduced, to just before Afghanistan when the Minimi (SAW in US designation) was introduced.

Units with the L1A1 SLR would have been 10 men with the LSW replaced by a GPMG.

Current infantry platoons on operations are completely different to this including a 7.62 long range rifle, SA80 with grenade launcher and other new things in the mix.



Thanks for the Royal pioneer corps Louie, mine was very much incomplete.

Do you have any thoughts on the regular reserve The addition of 153,000 (Of various weights and ages admittedly)men in a national emergency does change things quite a lot.

[Rainbow Six]

Do you have any thoughts on the regular reserve The addition of 153,000 (Of various weights and ages admittedly)men in a national emergency does change things quite a lot.

For myself, to be honest it's not an area I've gone into in any great detail...I'd always thought their primary role would be to make sure that by the end of 1996 the Army was as close to full strength as it could possibly be.

I'm sure I read somewhere (I think it was on Tanknet) that in War the regular Infantry Bns would each increase by a Company to come up to their War Fighting Strength, so aI ssumed that some of the Reserve would be used to help form these extra Companies (not necessarily by forming complete Companies themselves, more likely being distributed throughout the Battalions in small groups, with so many going to each Platoon).

Perhaps some (particularly the older ones) might be used to form additional Home Service Force Companies and / or to bolster training staff at Catterick, Warminster, etc Also I would imagine a substantial number might go to units to replace those killed / wounded in action, particularly in the opening nine – twelve months of the War

Granted, even taking all of the above into account that probably leaves thousands of men unaccounted for...I 'd be interested to see what everyone else thinks...

[Rainbow Six]

Guys thought you might be interested in this:

http://www.subbrit.org.uk/rsg/features/sfs/new_page_1.htm

Which is where i got this:

The Ministry of Defence War Book in the mid-1960s also assigned four battalions for special Government War Book measures oe

1. Special duties towards the Royal Family.
2. Special duties for central government
3. Security of gold reserves and art treasures.
4. Aid to HM Customs and the police in seizing enemy ships and aircraft.

http://www.amazon.com/Secret-State-Whitehall-Cold-War/dp/0141008350/ref=sr_1_1ie=UTF8&qid=1291777536&sr=8-1

A great book which also talks about the "War Book"

I got a copy of the Secret State a couple of months ago...cracking good read and lots of useful info.

I've been tempted to buy War Plan UK by Duncan Campbell a few times...has anyone read it

[perardua]

Does the British Army & other Commonwealth Armies not include an 'organic' field medic as part of the Platoon

Generally not, though increasing numbers of infantrymen are being put through the Battlefield Medic course to train them to provide an advanced standard of first aid in addition to their primary role, similar to a combat lifesaver. When my squadron deployed to Afghanistan, nearly every man was trained as a BFM.