Somewhat OT: ultimate IFV

[dragoon500ly]

A vehicle I thought was really interesting was the M274 () Mechanical Mule with a 106mm recoilless rifle mounted on it. An interestingly light -- and vulnerable -- antiarmor vehicle.

Don't forget the old Marine Corps Ontos...six 106mm recoilless rifles, could be fired one at a time, volleys of two or all six! You had to step outside to reload, but pity the poor T-55 that caught a volley of 6 HEAT rounds!

[Abbott Shaull]

I don't know about the Army, but The Marine Corps had TOW Jeeps. 2nd Tanks had a whole company of TOW Jeeps (~70). We transitioned to the HMMWV in '86.

Just prove that Marines will do something that the Army said was impossible. Okay, it could fire the TOW. I think largely the issue was carrying extra rounds for the TOW was an issue.

Wow that seems like large company...

[jimbo4795]

TOW Jeeps

A normal "gun" jeep carried 2 reloads for the TOW. The Squad Leader's Jeep didn't have a TOW system on board, he just carried 8 reloads (IIRC). In the early 80's, AT(TOW) Company, 2nd Tk Bn, had ~50 "gun" jeeps. The ~ 20 remaining jeeps were a mixture of Squad Leader (armed with Mk-19s) and Radio vehicles.

[Abbott Shaull]

Still a significant amount to mass for an anti-armor ambush. The next thing is to think how many of the gun jeeps would be soon destroyed after they tripped their ambush...

[Abbott Shaull]

Honestly 70 for one company. That is just crazy but doing the math on the number of HMMWVs that a Lt. Motorized Company would required to have decent amount of dismounts, while having a good mix of weapons mounted on them. One way to cut down on the number of HMMWV would be to have one platoon on HMMWVs armed and the rest of company cargo-troop carriers driving the other two platoons and dropping them off behind the line battle far enough, much like the M113 Mechanized units were suppose to deploy....

[dragoon500ly]

Just prove that Marines will do something that the Army said was impossible. Okay, it could fire the TOW. I think largely the issue was carrying extra rounds for the TOW was an issue.

Wow that seems like large company...

Had to check on this one but the Army did field TOW armed jeeps. Near as I can confirm, the 82nd Airborne, 101st Air Assault, the 2nd Infantry, the 6th, 7th, and 25th Light and the 10th Mountain were all armed at one time or another with this one.

The TO&E is a bit more difficult to pin, it looks like each division basically set up or modified it their way but it looks like 18 TOW- jeeps with 9 ammo-jeeps and about 84 men.

[Raellus]

Still a significant amount to mass for an anti-armor ambush. The next thing is to think how many of the gun jeeps would be soon destroyed after they tripped their ambush...

Yeah, those things would be extremely vulnerable to artillery fire.

[Panther Al]

True, but I can't imagine a easier or cheaper way to slow down an armoured thrust to allow time for heavier units to take the field than a pair of tow jeeps hiding behind just about anything from an anthill to a tree.

[jimbo4795]

Still a significant amount to mass for an anti-armor ambush. The next thing is to think how many of the gun jeeps would be soon destroyed after they tripped their ambush...

The TOW critters would 'always' brag about "two guys in a jeep" taking out tanks. The normal tanker response was "yeh, but you have to hit us, we only have to get close."

[Raellus]

True, but I can't imagine a easier or cheaper way to slow down an armoured thrust to allow time for heavier units to take the field than a pair of tow jeeps hiding behind just about anything from an anthill to a tree.

It's a valid concept and the Israelis had some good success with TOW Jeeps vs. Syrian armor in the hilly terrain around Lebanon c.'82. But, against massed Soviet artillery on the central European plain, it would be a bit more dicey. Stealth, concealment, and speedy displacement would be key to battlefield survival for Jeep-mounted ATGM units.

[Panther Al]

Not to sound harsh, but if I was a divisional/corps commander who was using them as a form of ablative speedbumps, I wouldn't expect to get many back: they are regretfully, considering their mission, pretty much expendable. All they need to do is buy time. Rough on them Sure. Mean of me Yep. The correct military decision in the situation Absolutely.

[dragoon500ly]

Not to sound harsh, but if I was a divisional/corps commander who was using them as a form of ablative speedbumps, I wouldn't expect to get many back: they are regretfully, considering their mission, pretty much expendable. All they need to do is buy time. Rough on them Sure. Mean of me Yep. The correct military decision in the situation Absolutely.

Might sound harsh, but have to agree its the correct decision. But look at it this way. West Germany (as an example) is a nation with a lot of possibilities for a defender, on average there is a built-up area of some size roughly every 1,200 meters, the natural cover also has the advantage of not being as dense as what Americans are used to. While the TOW/jeeps are highly vulnerable to everything from 5.45mm and up, they have the mobilty and cover to inflict a lot of damage. So there is a fair chance that losses would not be as heavy as one would expect.

[Abbott Shaull]

Had to check on this one but the Army did field TOW armed jeeps. Near as I can confirm, the 82nd Airborne, 101st Air Assault, the 2nd Infantry, the 6th, 7th, and 25th Light and the 10th Mountain were all armed at one time or another with this one.

The TO&E is a bit more difficult to pin, it looks like each division basically set up or modified it their way but it looks like 18 TOW- jeeps with 9 ammo-jeeps and about 84 men.

They may have. It wasn't until after 1980 they started to receive the Jeep. I know one of the driving force behind was to have vehicle that could have launcher and some what more supply of missiles.

[Panther Al]

As far as APC's go, it looks like the Israeli's got off the dime and bought into the Namer in a big way: the local factory is making 100 of them, and since the factory can only make so many they outsourced another 300 Namers to the GDLS Lima Army Tank Plant here in Ohio.

Pretty sad in way: more and more countries are outsourcing to America these days.

[Abbott Shaull]

As far as APC's go, it looks like the Israeli's got off the dime and bought into the Namer in a big way: the local factory is making 100 of them, and since the factory can only make so many they outsourced another 300 Namers to the GDLS Lima Army Tank Plant here in Ohio.

Pretty sad in way: more and more countries are outsourcing to America these days.

The vehicle itself is little more than the current tank chassis minus tank turret. Wonder how long it would be before they had made this vehicle with the consideration that they have been using Merkava tanks at times to move fire team size infantry units into the field. One would think that the US and NATO would look and follow the example since the have they most experience in armor warfare since the end of WWII. Yet, that another story....

Yeah, well someone has to put Americans to work. It been one of those things that has amazed me during the last 8 years how many factories that we allowed to closed. Instead of keeping people in work to build up the military. We have in many cases reduced the military even though they can barely keep up with the current missions they are tasked with, let alone other conflicts that we could be dragged into. We sit here and wonder why nations such as Iran, North Korea and to extent Russia have out right ignore us.

JMHO.