Soviet 746th Tank Regiment

[Legbreaker]

I agree. Chemical weapons are unlikely to deliver large amounts of equipment into the hands of the Soviets (or Nato for that matter).
Most modern AFVs include some measure of NBC protection. This alone will assist in keeping most vehicles out of enemy hands. NBC decontamination would also be a high priority for commanders - decontaminating a vehicle should take less time than repairing a knocked out AFV. Of course there are a number of situational factors to take into account such as the availability of the necessary decon equipment.

I can see chemical weapons being fairly effective against infantry, but not so much against armoured formations.

[helbent4]

As NATO forces pushed through Poland and moved closer to the Soviet border, I think that they would have been especially ready for a Soviet NBC attack. The Soviets are going to pull out all the stops to keep NATO off of its territory and NATO will be expecting that. Once a few chem attacks have been launched, and word gets out about how they affect the unprepared (or underprepared), vigilance and preparedness are both going to be extremely high from then on out.

Rae,

We can certainly go into "dueling hypotheticals" here!

Hypothetically, a unit under the circumstances would be hyper-vigilant and not likely to be caught in the open by a chemical attack. Indeed during the Great War, after the first gas attacks any offensive advantage was offset by an upgrade in equipment coupled with constant preparation and well-motivated practice.

One thing that is radically different in this situation is the mobile nature of modern war and the persistence of chemicals and fallout (not permanent but dangerous until decontaminated). I can see vehicles, equipment and supplies awaiting decontamination being abandoned and captured. If there's a depot of some kind about to be overrun the priority would be to save the trained personnel if possible. Again the hypothetical is that all abandoned equipment and supplies would be destroyed or booby-trapped in an orderly fashion.

As we've recently seen, this doesn't always happen and in much less critical circumstances than a war that would be as "hot" as it gets. In other words, tank crews always destroy their vehicles when they abandon them... except when they don't.

Tony

[Raellus]

One thing that is radically different in this situation is the mobile nature of modern war and the persistence of chemicals and fallout (not permanent but dangerous until decontaminated). I can see vehicles, equipment and supplies awaiting decontamination being abandoned and captured. If there's a depot of some kind about to be overrun the priority would be to save the trained personnel if possible.

Tony, to clarify, I think that this is a valid point and I agree. I just don't agree with the other part of your hypothetical where hundreds of MBT crews are gassed leaving pristine tanks behind for the enemy, that's all.

[helbent4]

Tony, to clarify, I think that this is a valid point and I agree. I just don't agree with the other part of your hypothetical where hundreds of MBT crews are gassed leaving pristine tanks behind for the enemy, that's all.

Rae,

Understood, and I'm with you on that. The premise is intriguing, but anything more than a battalion of captured armour would be seriously pushing creditability!

Tony

[Legbreaker]

Even a battalion is probably pushing it a bit unless there's been sufficient time between capture of individual units and supporting stores to transport it all into one place, train the new crews and deploy them (probably months I'd think if they were intended to survive very long).
Finding the crews themselves might be difficult. They'd probably need to read English (or German, or whatever language was in use). Yes, relabelling could be done, but something could be lost in the translation, or the translator may place a lower priority on some things than others leaving the crew in the lurch during maintenance for example.

[dragoon500ly]

One thing that is radically different in this situation is the mobile nature of modern war and the persistence of chemicals and fallout (not permanent but dangerous until decontaminated). I can see vehicles, equipment and supplies awaiting decontamination being abandoned and captured. If there's a depot of some kind about to be overrun the priority would be to save the trained personnel if possible. Again the hypothetical is that all abandoned equipment and supplies would be destroyed or booby-trapped in an orderly fashion.

There was always a lot of debate about how the Soviet Union would use its rather extensive collection of chemicals. The best guessimates would have the Soviets nailing NATO airfields, the Pershing/Lance/Land Based Cruise Missile sites, the NATO SAM belt, the French IRBM site, the REFORGER storage areas and possible the major ports...there was always an expectation that they would use chem as a strategic weapon.

My own take on this is that there would be no regiment sized unit, and perhaps not even a battalion sized unit...on the other hand the Spetsnaz are equipped with NATO uniforms and weapons...a company sized unit would be a more logical approach.

[Matt Wiser]

The unit Rae's referring to is the 83rd ID. They became known as The Rag-Tag Circus because of their extensive use of any and all captured German equipment they "acquired." If it was on wheels or tracks, and could move and shoot, it got a coat of olive-drab paint, a white U.S. star, and was immediately put to use. They drove everything from trucks to half-tracks, tanks (Mark IVs and Panthers are mentioned), even two fire trucks, with GIs riding on the ladders. And yes, they did fly a captured Me-109. They are mentioned in Ryan's The Last Battle, Hastings' book, and Antony Beevor's book on the battle for Berlin.

[helbent4]

The unit Rae's referring to is the 83rd ID. They became known as The Rag-Tag Circus because of their extensive use of any and all captured German equipment they "acquired." If it was on wheels or tracks, and could move and shoot, it got a coat of olive-drab paint, a white U.S. star, and was immediately put to use. They drove everything from trucks to half-tracks, tanks (Mark IVs and Panthers are mentioned), even two fire trucks, with GIs riding on the ladders. And yes, they did fly a captured Me-109. They are mentioned in Ryan's The Last Battle, Hastings' book, and Antony Beevor's book on the battle for Berlin.

Matt,

Fascinating! I saw the reference in Last Battle. Hard to believe someone would risk flying an Me 109, but I guess they did.

At least in this case the approach of using captures vehicles makes some sense, because they were using them to capture towns in the collapsing Reich, outrunning their supply lines.

The cited reference was a little vague on what vehicles this unit used, I can't see any reference to tanks. Trucks, kubelwagens, armoured cars and halftracks (the latter used as ambulances) I was already aware of.

Tony

[Raellus]

The unit Rae's referring to is the 83rd ID. They became known as The Rag-Tag Circus because of their extensive use of any and all captured German equipment they "acquired." If it was on wheels or tracks, and could move and shoot, it got a coat of olive-drab paint, a white U.S. star, and was immediately put to use. They drove everything from trucks to half-tracks, tanks (Mark IVs and Panthers are mentioned), even two fire trucks, with GIs riding on the ladders. And yes, they did fly a captured Me-109. They are mentioned in Ryan's The Last Battle, Hastings' book, and Antony Beevor's book on the battle for Berlin.

Thanks, Matt! It's good to know that I'm not completely senile yet.

[Legbreaker]

I'm guessing this is the unit I heard about that used the German tanks.

[Matt Wiser]

83rd ID had as many motor vehicles (captured and U.S.) as the 2nd Armored Division on their right flank. They had a race from the Rhine to the Elbe, and both wanted to be first into Berlin when the order to halt on the Elbe came.

The 83rd ID wasn't the only American unit to use captured German equipment: Third Army had several provisional artillery battalions using captured German guns against their former owners.

[HorseSoldier]

Even a battalion is probably pushing it a bit unless there's been sufficient time between capture of individual units and supporting stores to transport it all into one place, train the new crews and deploy them (probably months I'd think if they were intended to survive very long).

The other problem then becomes some of the other ways mechanized warfare has changed since the WW2 era as well. If you've only got a battalion or so sized unit of NATO armor, putting those guys in the field for continuous, 24-hour operations under limited visibility conditions and such is just a screaming recipe for blue-on-blue (or red-on-red, I suppose, in this case) fratricide incidents.

That stuff was a major concern and consideration in Gulf War One given the Coalition warfare aspects of stuff, but I think it would be a nightmare in the more complex terrain of central Europe. There might be the plus side of being able to confuse guys on the NATO side, but then NATO optics and sensors are better, and I'm pretty sure if I was a Soviet or Polish AFV crewman catching glimpses of distant M1s behind my lines I'd expect the medal I'd get for opening up on them to be especially shiny and impressive . . .

If such a unit were formed I think the crewmen in it would be justifiably paranoid and just as terrified of their side as the enemy. About the only place I can see it being workable would be more of a SOF kind of scenario that's been discussed already -- if you could airlift in a couple company teams of mixed NATO armor to an airfield seized by desantniki or something, for instance, they could go tearing around the German countryside in the NATO rear area with relative impunity for a little while at least.

Did someone already talk about the idea of sending the AFVs and logistics for this sort of unit to the Chinese front That would be a scenario where the fratricide angle would be reduced.

[Legbreaker]

At the time of the Pact counteroffensive in 1997, China had been virtually destroyed and all effective resistance crushed (the units involved in the counteroffensive were mostly released from China and shipped west). There'd be little need for armour in China at that time, or certainly not enough to justify shipping a few individual vehicles across the continent and halfway around the world from potential supplies and support for them.
Some stores may have been captured in Korea, but it's extremely doubtful there'd be enough to justify shipping anywhere.

[Rainbow Six]

Did someone already talk about the idea of sending the AFVs and logistics for this sort of unit to the Chinese front That would be a scenario where the fratricide angle would be reduced.

My suggestion was that the Sovs might be able to capture sufficient numbers of western equipment from the Chinese to equip a unit such as the 746th Tank Regiment (the equipment itself having been sold to the Chinese during 1995/96 and being older vehicles such as M60's, Chieftains, or even, as has been suggested M48,s Centurions, etc).

However, whilst I agree with you 100% that the risk of fratricide would be much less for Sovs using western vehicles on the Chinese front, I also agree fully with Leg that by the time we get into the summer of 1997 the Sovs would see no value in shipping armour east...by then they were starting to move units from the Chinese theatre to the European theatre en masse...(hence my original suggestion)

About the only place I can see it being workable would be more of a SOF kind of scenario that's been discussed already -- .

Another possibility would be to use them for rear area security (by rear area, I mean hundreds of kilometres behind the front line, for example as part of the force protecting what's left of the Central Government).

[helbent4]

83rd ID had as many motor vehicles (captured and U.S.) as the 2nd Armored Division on their right flank. They had a race from the Rhine to the Elbe, and both wanted to be first into Berlin when the order to halt on the Elbe came.

The 83rd ID wasn't the only American unit to use captured German equipment: Third Army had several provisional artillery battalions using captured German guns against their former owners.

Matt,

Seems plausible, and I can buy the use of German transports (trucks/Kubelwagens) and light armour. Despite anecdotes stating the Americans used German tanks, I still can't quite credit it. I'm not disagreeing with you in particular, just voicing some personal skepticism.

My logic is that at that stage of WWII units like the 83rd were struggling to keep up with the pace of advance into Germany. They were literally outrunning their own supply lines and therefore couldn't easily get replacement vehicles for their tank crews. Fair enough. Using captured armour would keep up the rapid pace of advance because it is available. Despite the far superior combat ability of German tanks they would be a nightmare to maintain and supply, thus slowing down the division overall and defeating the main reason for using captured armour in the first place.

Tony