Cavalry in Twilight 2000

[Webstral]

Although I hate to hasten the end of the world by agreeing with Leg six or more times in a single 12-month period, I have to agree with him about the effects of the war on horses. 1998 is going to be very tough on anything with a pound of meat on its bones, even if we ignore the effects of nukes and chemical weapons on horse stocks in Europe. The western US will get off fairly lightly, and so the capture of wild mustangs might be practical. (Who gave me that idea Thanks, whoever it was.) Between the Irish Sea and the Urals, though, the horse population is going to take a real beating.

There"s nothing wrong with having a few cavalry units. I just tend to agree with all the posters who argue that cavalry units in Europe will have to wring the maximum utility out of the horses that are available. Also, cavalry might be restricted to fairly small units (like 4-12 CAV). A so-called cavalry division might have only a couple of hundred cavalry troopers. The rest (the support types) might use light vehicles or bicycles.

I seem to remember a thread on bicycle use. The Japanese made tremendous use of them on the Malay Peninsula in 1942. With very little modification, bicycles can be used to pull carts and small trailers, thus being transformed into cargo haulers. This is how most civilian traffic moves between Sierra Vista and Tucson by 2001. During the summer, a rider starts one leg at first light. The return trip is started as late in the day as the length of trip and light will allow.

Webstral

[Legbreaker]

As a young and relatively unfit 16yr old, I could easily manage 20kph on a bicycle. Also a properly constructed bike, with panniers, etc, can carry quite a load.
Given that and the fact tehy don't need somebody to hold them while the rider goes into combat, fodder isn't an issue, etc, I can see bicycles seeing a wider use than horses.

...have military units parked at, even at that early stage of the war, the senior commanders could see the train wreck coming and would take steps.

But could they really do much about it The Last Submarine for example has the 43th MPs overrun by mobs of starving people as they tried to protect the docks. I can't see an infantry or armoured division, which was positioned to defend against an enemy army, being able to do a lot to resist their own civilian population.

[Panther Al]

Not disagreeing- bikes will be a lot more common than horses, after all even with things being as messed up as they are, setting up a small bike factory would be relatively easy (not so sure about sourcing tyres, but...). In fact I think most infantry units will be awash in them.
My point is that the use of the unit will shape if its horse mounted or bike mounted. Bikes are limited in that if you want to carry more than yourself and 20 or so kilos of stuff you need trucks, and the stills that goes with them. But you don't need any specialised personnel and feed horses will. Horsed units on the other hand can pull wagons and artillery, can, for the most part, live off the land with little or no supply of "tech". But, they do require training, both to ride as well as trained farriers, vets, etc.
So: a few horse units yes, primarily in the scout/screen/raid type of uses, but the bulk of the average joe's in the larger units riding bikes as much as possible, just in a non-tactical way.

[Panther Al]

And on the subject of putting a stop to ravaged farms and such, that depends. In the US, France, England, and other such places that hasn't seen armies up close and personal, guarded by troops that haven't fought, sure they are going to get rolled. But, in central Europe, where the civilians have seen fighting up close and personal, with the troops guarding the farms having been shot up, bombed, shelled, and nuked enough to get used to it, being told that protecting these farms means they won't starve My money is on the troops.

[Mohoender]

I hope that this question was directed at me Mo because I agree with you completely.

Exactly and as I see we agree.

I also read someone talking of bicycle cavalry. That is something I entirely agree with as well. I never understood why bicycle troops were not used in Krakow. It is stated that the city is producing bicycles but none of the units would use it. Huge doubts on my part.

[waiting4something]

As a young and relatively unfit 16yr old, I could easily manage 20kph on a bicycle. Also a properly constructed bike, with panniers, etc, can carry quite a load.
Given that and the fact tehy don't need somebody to hold them while the rider goes into combat, fodder isn't an issue, etc, I can see bicycles seeing a wider use than horses.


But could they really do much about it The Last Submarine for example has the 43th MPs overrun by mobs of starving people as they tried to protect the docks. I can't see an infantry or armoured division, which was positioned to defend against an enemy army, being able to do a lot to resist their own civilian population.

I bet they where so hungry they could eat a horse.

[helbent4]

But could they really do much about it The Last Submarine for example has the 43th MPs overrun by mobs of starving people as they tried to protect the docks. I can't see an infantry or armoured division, which was positioned to defend against an enemy army, being able to do a lot to resist their own civilian population.

Leg,

Bikes make a lot of sense. I guess horses are just a lot "sexier" if not as realistic!

(Regarding the following, I don't mean to disagree with you personally but you touch on a couple things I want to comment on.)

I think that while some kind of government remains, they would take steps to protect their food supplies like farms and agricultural areas if they could. While food is scarce overall it's not evenly so, and the farms where the horses are might be able to feed them long enough until they're requisitioned. For the sake of canon, this is probably what happened, even if it's probably not likely. People starving in the cities

Starving and/or panicked mobs overrunning military units happens from time to time in post-apoc fiction and RPGs, but I wonder how realistic that is. We tend to assume mobs of desperate starving people are like Japanese or Russian human waves, but they're really the opposite. (Also, a human wave is not usually a successful tactic.) Fanatical soldiers charging the enemy are driven to their deaths by their officers or inspired by ideology, but people who just want to live want to, well, live. That's their primary objective. When the first rank gets mowed down by the machineguns, everyone else in the leaderless starving mob says "whoa! Time to see if there's food the other direction!"

My assumption for units like the 43rd is "overrun by a mob" may be the official story, covering up a more difficult but likely truth that they likely fell apart due to desertion, mutiny, etc.

Tony

[dragoon500ly]

Not disagreeing- bikes will be a lot more common than horses, after all even with things being as messed up as they are, setting up a small bike factory would be relatively easy (not so sure about sourcing tyres, but...). In fact I think most infantry units will be awash in them.
My point is that the use of the unit will shape if its horse mounted or bike mounted. Bikes are limited in that if you want to carry more than yourself and 20 or so kilos of stuff you need trucks, and the stills that goes with them. But you don't need any specialised personnel and feed horses will. Horsed units on the other hand can pull wagons and artillery, can, for the most part, live off the land with little or no supply of "tech". But, they do require training, both to ride as well as trained farriers, vets, etc.
So: a few horse units yes, primarily in the scout/screen/raid type of uses, but the bulk of the average joe's in the larger units riding bikes as much as possible, just in a non-tactical way.

Early bike tires were made of wood with leather "tires". In the Vietnam War, the NVA made tires for their bicycles from old truck tires. I can actually see this sort of cavalry far more readily than I can see horse-mounted cavalry.

[Abbott Shaull]

Early bike tires were made of wood with leather "tires". In the Vietnam War, the NVA made tires for their bicycles from old truck tires. I can actually see this sort of cavalry far more readily than I can see horse-mounted cavalry.

Even in WWII there were troops with the UK forces during the landings at and after D-Day that brought bikes over for this purpose.

Yeah, I can see these type of lightly armed troops being employed, doing much of the work that many of the so called small Cavalry units were doing. One of the advantages is that with Cavalry if they dismount to fight, you still need to leave handlers and protection with the horses. Where as bike mounted troops ideally you would need security element with the bikes once dismounted, but then again it wouldn't actually be needed if it was a situation where every rifle counted on the Line.

[Abbott Shaull]

Exactly and as I see we agree.

I also read someone talking of bicycle cavalry. That is something I entirely agree with as well. I never understood why bicycle troops were not used in Krakow. It is stated that the city is producing bicycles but none of the units would use it. Huge doubts on my part.

You know a GM could just simply take the Horse Cavalry and say they were bicycle troops. Also same with some of the larger concentrations of Cavalry such as the former 14th Polish MRD in which they had several mounted Cavalry units. I could see keeping one or two and converting the others to bicycle mounted units.

[Adm.Lee]

I like the original article, but reading the rest of the thread has made bicycles make more sense in T2k. I think I am going to pencil a note or two into my random encounter tables to substitute "bike" for "horse" in most cases, especially on roads.

For instance, a merchant or military convoy might use horses for pulling the wagons, but the guards and especially the scouts should be bike-mounted.

I do remember that Krakow (and maybe some other cities) mentioned bicycle manufacturing (and repair), but it never struck me that no one was described as riding them.

[James Langham]

Even in WWII there were troops with the UK forces during the landings at and after D-Day that brought bikes over for this purpose.

Yeah, I can see these type of lightly armed troops being employed, doing much of the work that many of the so called small Cavalry units were doing. One of the advantages is that with Cavalry if they dismount to fight, you still need to leave handlers and protection with the horses. Where as bike mounted troops ideally you would need security element with the bikes once dismounted, but then again it wouldn't actually be needed if it was a situation where every rifle counted on the Line.

Although they did dump the bikes on landing as useless.

There was the Hungarian () Fast Corps in Barbarossa who used bikes.

Actually I can see bikes being were useful in a home defence situation "when the bell rings all get straight to HQ."

Their biggest disadvantage is a lack of cross country mobility.

[dragoon500ly]

Although they did dump the bikes on landing as useless.

There was the Hungarian () Fast Corps in Barbarossa who used bikes.

Actually I can see bikes being were useful in a home defence situation "when the bell rings all get straight to HQ."

Their biggest disadvantage is a lack of cross country mobility.

I don't know about the cross-country mobility, I've seen bikes ridden on the sides of mountains and in deserts...

When biking supplies down the Ho Chi Minh Trail, the NVA wouldn't ride the bike, they would put a socket and attach a wooden pole in place of the seat and the "rider" would walk along side guiding the bike, often with loads of up to 400lbs.

Bikes could also be adapted to tow two and four wheel carts. There are sketchs and pics of bikes towing two wheel machine gun carts. Or teams of bikes attached to a shaft and towing small wagons.

Sitting down and looking over the comments already posted...I think a stronger case could be made for bicycle troops and then use a smaller number of horse-mounted troops for areas where you couldn't get a bike into.

[Mohoender]

As much as I think that bicycles are interesting and should be developped by GM. I won't consider them superior to horses.

Bicycle troops will not be useful in the same situation than horses. Bicycle troops are really efficient in defensive tactics but they are seldom capable of conducting the raids that Horse cavalry can conduct.

In addition, I would expect bicycle to have replaced horses in Asia but not in USSR. I have never seen any use of bicycle troops in Russia.

Something else plead for the reality of horse cavalry among the soviet army. Cavalry had been used actively up to 1947 and the last units were disbanded in the mid-1950's. Officers and soldiers who had served with these units will still be around, old (over 55) but still around.

You might also have more horses surviving in Russia than in US. While US soldiers might hesitate in shooting at a crowd of civilians, KGB and red army troops might not be that regarding.

Other troops will be equally useful as well:
- Camel troops in desert areas
- Ox patrol in Asia (I'm not inventing it, i saw that somewhere)
- Dogs in Canada and Siberia
- Mules in mountains

I forgot: both bikes and annimals should be around.

[Webstral]

As is so often the case once we discuss the post-Exchange possibilities and probabilities, a wide variety of options exist for cavalry units. Units will develop their own tactics and doctrines based on the available manpower and equipment, as is so often the case in Twilight: 2000. Mo, I"m glad you brought in other animals. Pack animals other than horses might be used to do all of the load bearing, leaving the horses to transport only a cavalryman and his basic load.

I think we would see a lot of these ideas maturing by the end of 2003. Breeding programs would be providing some adult animals by this point. At the same time, the global fleet of operable vehicles would have shrunk even further. Operable vehicles probably will have been stripped to the absolute minimum weight to conserve fuel.

Lamentably for the US, Mexico has a leg up when it comes to post-Exchange horse-powered formations. Mexico enters the Twilight War with a lot more of its rural economy still dependent on equines. The very limited nuclear strikes on Mexico won"t affect Mexico"s horse population the way the European horse population will be affected. Hunger in 1998 will take its toll on the horse population, but the relatively intact Mexican Army and police will be in a better position to requisition horses than, say, Polish or German authorities. One might even argue that the Mexican state would have deliberately rounded up all horses in places like Oaxaca and the Yucatan, where horses are still to be found in some numbers and where the locals are predominantly of non-European ancestry.

Consequently, we might see a fair number of cavalry troops in operation against US forces. This has some implications for Fort Huachuca, since I have consistently maintained that the Mexican armor and motor transport is going to be sent to Second Mexican Army in California and Fourth Mexican Army in Texas. In the considerable area of Arizona, cavalry will be superior raiders and reconnaissance forces compared to foot mobile infantry and light AFV that might run out of fuel at an inopportune moment. This is going to require more thought.

Getting back to the horse population, some time ago I posted a few notes about the role of wild horses in the emerging Arizona economy of early 2001. SAMAD becomes a major consumer of captured horses once troops from Huachuca start reaching out into the state in force in 1999. By consumer I mean that Fort Huachuca purchases these horses for military use. Horses (among other items) flow to SAMAD from the northern parts of the state, while manufactured itemsparticularly new small arms and ammunitionflow back. Flagstaff, home of the remnants of the Arizona state government and 1st Brigade (AZSTAG), also purchases horses. Once the remnants of the marauder bands operating throughout the northern and eastern portions of Arizona are hunted down or dispersed, the surviving towns throughout the region can turn to producing food, animal transport, and raw materials for SAMAD in exchange for a variety of manufactured goods.


Webstral