USS Saratoga Fate

[Olefin]

Well then I will work on it - and probably shouldnt respond to posts late at night too - might have been just a wee bit tired when I read the part about laughing at my timeline - which I am betting a lot of people wouldnt like to have as a comment about their post, no matter what the delivery was.

[Legbreaker]

It's worth remembering that Targan is a moderator and has taken on a lot of the duties of running this forum. If he speaks up about something, we should all shut up and listen.

[Olefin]

First off dont tell people they need to shut up and listen. Thats rude and doesnt do anything but basically make people pissed and write off what you said.

And second as a moderator he should know that posts here deserve some kind of respect - have been a moderator on other forums and I have never told anyone, no matter what they posted, that I thought something they posted was foolish unless they were trying to pick a fight, which is exactly what you just tried to do with what you just posted.

Disagreement is one thing and thats fine.

Saying something is laughable is not.

And for the record what I was saying about those two modules was directed at the modules themselves and the people who created them as not being able to fit in with the rest of the canon they created, in my opinion.

Notice it says in my opinion.

And as Gary Gygax has said canon is only canon only as far as it is concerned with the particular DungeonMaster who is running the campaign.

I have heard of very good T2000 campaigns that never once set foot in Poland and were completely set in Iran and the Middle East. Or where Omega never happened and the US and its allies, with local offensives, drove the Russians out and linked back up with cut off parties in 2001 to 2002.

Hardly canon - but so what So if in the timeline I propose the drought doesnt happen and Howling Wildnerness and Kidnapped go out the window - then they do.

And if in yours the US falls apart as per those modules and its Mad Max/Aftermath on the highways - then it does.

But no one should be told to shut up and listen or have someone say what they said is laughable - that just makes them say screw this and find something better to do - and there goes another T2000 player or campaign or potential module creator.

[kiltedguard]

Wow...tough series of posts to follow, but I'll throw my two cents in there. My father was posted to the Sara(toga) in '78 as squadron complement. He worked on avionics. Anyway...at THAT point the Sara was quite long in the tooth. The gradual corrosion of the salt water on her hull had thinned it out to the point where...on several occasions...if the harbor wasn't especially deep and if the fuel stores (Since she was still a bunker oil fired ship), were still fairly full, she would take on water and settle on the silt. He happened twice in Jacksonville/Pensacola, and once in Naples, Italy.

My point is...though...I can find no reference in the TW2k references to the Saratoga, I'd let you all know that IRL he duty station was as part of the Med. Battle Group and she was he regular station. She likely would have either tangled with enemy forces in the Med. or been diverted to "The GAP" to engage Soviet North Fleet forces. With her hull in the condition that it was, a single solid missile impact would have broke her keel. Another carrier would have had to recover what was left of her airborne fighters and that would be that for the Sara.

[James1978]

USS Saratoga CV-60

The Saratoga went into the Philadelphia Naval Shipyard in 1980 for a SLEP overhaul that lasted 28 months. Material-wise, she wasn't the same ship after the SLEP that she was in 1978.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I'm going to post one more fixup of Saratogas disposition because I just read it, and it reads dumb... so here we go:


My thoughts on the Saratoga being where it is were based on the idea that she'd been working the southwest Atlantic, near Florida, and she and her battle-group had been ordered to stop convoys of Division Cuba from reaching the coast of Texas. She got into a shooutout with Soviet and Cuban surface elements and while she broke the back of Soviet Naval operations in the region and virtually destroyed the last of the "official" Cuban navy, she absorbed an anti-ship missile hit and was severely damaged. Realizing a ship that could maybe someday be put back in action was preferable to a ship that was a natural reef her commander ran her aground in the shallows off of Fort Jefferson, approximately 80 miles west of Key West. As most of her planes were already airborne as part of strike packages operating against the remains of the Soviet/Cuban ships, performing SAR and CAP duties, these remaining aircraft were diverted to land bases - specifically NAS Key West and Homestead AFB.

While these planes and helos were initially a boon to MILGOV in South Florida, most were attritted due to mechanical failures (due to fewer and fewer critical spares), operational loss over Cuba, and finally a simple lack of fuel. The tiny MILGOV enclave in Key West maintains a lone SH-60 and a pair of F/A18Ds in flyable condition with a reserve of fuel for contingency situations.

The Saratoga's remaining crew did an able job of damage control, and there is a contingent of Marines and a skeleton crew of sailors on-board to maintain the ship. However, again, multiple hurricanes and general neglect have taken a hard toll on the once-proud carrier.

While the ship is marginally operational and, against most threats very well defended, it is a tempting target for New America and raiders in general. How long it will sit unmolested is anyone's guess.

[kiltedguard]

The Saratoga went into the Philadelphia Naval Shipyard in 1980 for a SLEP overhaul that lasted 28 months. Material-wise, she wasn't the same ship after the SLEP that she was in 1978.

The SLEP program was a ships systems and equipment overhaul and upgrade. Though some work MAY have been done on the hull. The ship was launched in 55, making her already 23 years old in '78. Even with the SLEP program, which was botched at the navy yard in Philly and required additional work, that would have made her 40 years old by '95 and near the end of even the SLEP program's project life span. No overhaul program can compensate for the effects of salt water on the ship's structure over the course of 4 decades.

She was decommissioned in 1994, which would have made her a candidate for recommissioning and deployment in a reasonable amount of time, but her lifespan on the battlefield would have been short.

[Legbreaker]

Though some work MAY have been done on the hull. The ship was launched in 55, making her already 23 years old in '78. Even with the SLEP program, which was botched at the navy yard in Philly and required additional work, that would have made her 40 years old by '95 and near the end of even the SLEP program's project life span. No overhaul program can compensate for the effects of salt water on the ship's structure over the course of 4 decades.

Exactly right. Replacing the hull is also a MASSIVE undertaking and you may as well just build a new ship.

I think the most qualified person to speak on this subject though would be Bluedwarf - an engineer and marine architect.

[kiltedguard]

Exactly right. Replacing the hull is also a MASSIVE undertaking and you may as well just build a new ship.

I think the most qualified person to speak on this subject though would be Bluedwarf - an engineer and marine architect.

You mean I can haz cheezburger

[Webstral]

I don't think it's your idea or opinions - it's your delivery.

Delivery really does matter. Id go so far as to say that delivery is 90% of the message. If a member of the forum wishes to impress with the thickness of his skin, I strongly advise going over to NPR where that sort of thing has a value. Once in a while, were all going to see our gentlemanly demeanor slip. Im no exception. Nonetheless, this isnt where we show off thickness of skin. We discuss ideas.

[Olefin]

Delivery and thickness of skin has already been changed.

[Webstral]

I agree with everyone who has claimed that GDW oversimplified the naval picture in Twilight: 2000. It's something we have to live with. Personally, I think attempts to flesh out the naval picture are commendable.

If you are a canon purist, thats fine. Say so and let everyone else talk. Sit at the next table and listen, if you so choose. Constant reminders that youre a canon purist serve no good purpose except to irritate the people trying to have a constructive conversation. Say it once and let it go.

As for folks looking to improve on the naval picture, be ready to have your rationale for a given aspect called into question. Thats what we do here. If your answer is oeThats how I like it, thats fine. But if you are going to give a rationale, be prepared to have it called into question. Be an adult about both the calling into question and having your rationale called into question, and well all get along fine. Allow each other the occasional lapse, and well all get along spectacularly.

[Webstral]

Delivery and thickness of skin has already been changed.

I appreciate your efforts. You're not the only intended recipient of my message. Some of the members who have been here longer than you need a reminder.

[Rainbow Six]

A snippet I just came across skimming through the Med Cruise Module...(page 16)

Gibraltar was the base from which NATO launched the convoy in support of Turkey in June 1997, and was the base from which the carriers operated when retaliatory air strikes were launched against Greece after that convoy was attacked of Izmir

Same page confirms that most Naval vessels survived the nuclear strike on Gib

Most of the Naval vessels had enough warning of the strike to get out of harm's way

The air strikes on Greece took place on 29 June 1997 and the module references carriers (plural), so that suggests there were at least two Carriers (not neccessarily US) active in the Med several weeks after the battles of the Kola Pensinsula in early June 1997. Given Kiltedguard's (are you a Scotsman by the way ) statement about the Saratoga's duty station it's possible Saratoga was one of those two.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

To be honest, I just picked the Saratoga 'cause I like the name and her history, I live in Florida hence her being run aground here, and the idea of something as big and looming as an aircraft carrier as an adventure locale is too neat to pass up. I could have just as easily made it a super-freighter full of vital war materiel, a different carrier, a Soviet carrier, a different location, etc. etc.

It'd probably be "cooler" if it was a CV-N, then there'd be power and a real rationale for people still living there, but that was already dealt with in Satellite Down, which was IMO not a great module. The premise is neat - multiple factions need that satellite data, and it's under the gun of a crazy guy with lots of weapons - but the execution leaves something to be desired.

Anyhow that's my two brass shells.