Survival of the US 5th ID (M)

[schnickelfritz]

Has anyone out there tinkered with the V1 Kalisz scenario where the 5th Division does NOT get destroyed After reading the Eastern European Sourcebook (specifically how the 8th ID was equipped) a couple of years ago I began work on a scenario where the bulk of the 5th was able to evade encirclement.

Basically the premise was that a regimental command vehicle of the Soviet 124th MRD was damaged and the maps/plans for the Soviet plans were captured. Simple enough...it's happened before, in particular during WW2.

Thanks-
Dave

[Legbreaker]

It seems unlikely there was an actual plan for the destruction of the 5th, but instead happened more as units reacted to contact. The last 2-3 days may have had some sort of coordination, but prior to that no enemy commander could have had any idea on who the 5th would react - they simply didn't know exactly where the 5th were, nor did they know how much or how little the 5th knew about Pact dispositions.

IF the 5th commander had a perfect overview of the region, detailing each and every enemy unit, the condition of each bridge, and a much larger fuel reserve, then perhaps they could have gotten themselves out of the trap.

[schnickelfritz]

Survival of the US 5th ID (M)

My scenario was predicated upon the capture of either a regimental command post (MTLB and radio vans) or the actual Divisional command post in the road ambush detailed in the V1 scenario.

Within that command vehicle were found up to date maps and plots of the positions of the various WP units and installations at that particular point in time.

It also assumes a small amount of MLRS ammunition was available to the divisional artillery and a small amount of air assets as well, along the lines of what was details for the US 8th ID in The Eastern European Sourcebook.

Add some Russian/Polish speaking interpreters using the WP radio frequencies impersonating the now dead/captured 124th MRD officers to create confusion and dissent between the Poles and Russians and there you have the basic framework.

Once I can get MS Word on this computer, perhaps I'll post the scenario.

I like the fact that it creates the basis for scenarios that aren't the usual "the 6 of us are still on the run from Polish cavalry" deal.

The 5th ID is now down to the bulk of the 1st and 2nd Brigades and stuck in Poland until at least the summer of 2000. Fuel is still short and there are caualties and repairs to be attended to. The divisional large stills were captured, but the 5th captured gasoline and some stills from the Soviets on the way out. The division does not have enough fuel and spares to exit Poland or make it to the coast before winter's arrival without abandoning a good deal of the surviving heavy stuff and a number of the wounded.

The Divisional HQ was still overrun at Kalisz, the CO captured by the Poles while defending wounded too ill to move.

The 5th is still on its own and still way behind enemy lines, and the situation is still grave.

I looked to the RDF Sourcebook and King's Ransom to provide some guidance. Characters would be sent out in small groups to sweep for marauders, secure POW's, raid supplie dumps, and guard convoys, amongst others. There's still a lot of work to do, especially with winter coming.

Thanks,
Dave

[Legbreaker]

I can't imagine the Pact resting until the 5th were destroyed. There's a LOT of units in the area to draw upon, and with the 5th's lack of fuel, all they need to do is keep them pinned for a while until they reorganise and bring up reinforcements.

The situation is different with the 8th - there's very little Pact strength remaining in their area and with one Pact division ready to change sides (if they haven't already - AFB)....
The only thing the 8th and 5th have in common is their lack of fuel.

[Abbott Shaull]

Well by the time of their destruction not many of the Pact forces were willingly pursuing the 5th Mechanized Division. A number of things could of happen, if the 5th Mechanized Division was able to find maps early enough in the start of the 4th Soviet GTA during their counter attack. If and only if they had Polish and Soviet speaking who were able to give false transmissions soon enough, then maybe on the outside chance they could organize a break-out from where they were.

Yet, one has to remember the 4th GTA was attacking from the Southeast, the 22nd CA from the Northeast, as well as an Polish Army that was still in pursuit from the northwest. The 3rd Shock Army wasn't in no position to block to the southwest, but their maybe enough of gap for them to slip to the south...Just maybe...

In order for them to head north then the 22nd CA would have to be slowed up a bit...

[Dog 6]

I like your idea schnickelfritz. in my games the 5th is alive and well off. btw just ignore to leg he's a cannon nut case.

[Legbreaker]

Excuse me!

Anyone is free to do what they like if they can justify it.

[Snake Eyes]

Excuse me!

Anyone is free to do what they like if they can justify it.

I think you'll find the justification part to be entirely optional.

Excused.

[Legbreaker]

What I mean by justify is present a logical back story or alternate chain of events for it such as Web has done admirably with his Thunder Empire.

No point simply stating something like the USS Enterprise is still floating and in 100% working order when virtually every other ship in the world is either on the bottom, or trashed from years of combat without also saying it's in such mint condition because it was pulled into an alternate universe at the beginning of the war and then spat back out again.
Or perhaps something a little more believable....

[Targan]

A while back on this forum there was some bad blood relating (in part) to a perception that non-canonical, member-generated content was somehow less valid because it did not conform to canon. Obviously there were other points of difference too but that was one of the main ones. It was made very clear at the time that discriminatory bias against non-canonical works was unacceptable on this forum.

It works the other way too. Just because a member points out differences between canon and a postulated scenario doesn't mean its ok for others to make derogatory comments in response. Personally, I like seeing suggested scenarios critiqued by other members, both pro-canon and freestyle. As long as the critiquing is in the form of constructive criticism or delivered in good spirit and with some logic behind it I think it should be accepted with good grace by all.

That is my hope anyway.

schnickelfritz, the scenario you postulate is an interesting one. If you flesh out the ideas in future posts I for one will be reading them.

[Rainbow Six]

No point simply stating something like the USS Enterprise is still floating and in 100% working order when virtually every other ship in the world is either on the bottom, or trashed from years of combat without also saying it's in such mint condition because it was pulled into an alternate universe at the beginning of the war and then spat back out again.

LOL...I thought that was the USS Nimitz...

[Legbreaker]

schnickelfritz, the scenario you postulate is an interesting one. If you flesh out the ideas in future posts I for one will be reading them.

As will I. It's a very interesting idea, although I'm yet to be convinced on the survival of the 5th not unbalancing the entire late 2000 scenario. Definitely want to see your thoughts on that and perhaps help flesh it out a bit.

[Legbreaker]

LOL...I thought that was the USS Nimitz...

LMAO
You know, I actually thought of using the Nimitz as the example!

[Targan]

LOL...I thought that was the USS Nimitz...

Classic film.

[HorseSoldier]

Has anyone out there tinkered with the V1 Kalisz scenario where the 5th Division does NOT get destroyed

I don't see much point, and don't see it being very plausible for the situation the division finds itself in during the 2000 offensive. I don't see the "we got their plans" counterfactual being adequate to fix the situation -- the point of departure would have to be a couple orders of magnitude more significant. Like no POL from Ploesti for the Soviet forces, otherwise 5th ID(M) gets overrun no matter how you slice it for the force mix and mobility differential. Or significantly more modest aims for the NATO offensive that don't put 5th ID swinging out there in the wind in the first place.

I think the ideas you are looking at, scenario-wise would work better for 8th ID or 2nd MarDiv than 5th ID, the demise of which is sort of a core plot point in the game.