The 8th ID takes a wrong turn at Albuquerque...

[pmulcahy11b]

Could it be the result of a confused, panicked retreat

[Legbreaker]

There doesn't seem to be enough enemy in the area for that, and the 8th, besides being lost and out of fuel, are in good order.

[HorseSoldier]

I don't see the 8th being where they are shown as a flaw. Putting it all on one officers shoulders is where the problem lies.

Agreed. I don't have a problem with the being out in the middle of nowhere in the Baltic States, but I do think the narrative getting them there is the flawed product.

[Abbott Shaull]

That is the problem, yeah as written it is flawed. Like stated elsewhere it could be a problem and result of panicked retreat...

[Legbreaker]

A retreat forward further into enemy held lands I don't think so.
And then there's the minimal enemy forces of note in the area....

Obviously the 8th were after something - could be resources, could be an enemy unit they had on the ropes, could be any number of things. They certainly weren't chased - you only need look at their organised state to know that.

[Abbott Shaull]

Just maybe the entire Spring/Summer NATO offensive was to inject NATO troops into areas that were it was felt that Moscow was quickly losing control. The IX Corps with the 2nd Marine Division were sent in to give units who were on the verge of switch of doing so.

[Legbreaker]

It's certainly a possibility, but we don't actually know they were on the verge of switching in early 2000. The only information we have relates mainly to post offensive when everyone was battered, bruised and exhausted. At that time I'm sure even some western units were ready to switch sides if it meant a better quality of life for a while (or even continued life).

[pmulcahy11b]

Maybe the 8th came to the decision that they were never going to get back to the States, and were looking for some sort of safe harbor -- trade their firepower and use as a defense force for a home with the locals. Like many units in Europe did.

[Abbott Shaull]

Maybe the 8th came to the decision that they were never going to get back to the States, and were looking for some sort of safe harbor -- trade their firepower and use as a defense force for a home with the locals. Like many units in Europe did.

It could be possibility after they found themselves so far in advance of the rest of IX US Corps.

[Legbreaker]

"Never" is probably a bit strong. "The forseeable future" is probably more apt.

[Abbott Shaull]

"Never" is probably a bit strong. "The forseeable future" is probably more apt.

I would think who would be asking whether there was much difference in "Never" and "The near future" would claim they were almost the same thing to the troops of the 8th US Mechanized Division and possibly the IX Corps.

[Legbreaker]

That's quite possible, however I can't see every last member of the 8th (or any other unit that chose to stay) thinking that way.

Re the XI Corps, although I believe it's impossible for them to leave in 2000, it's a possibility for later in 2001 or 2002. The more time that passes, the less likely there will be effective Pact units blocking them, and the more resources they will have created for themselves (thinking about fuel and bridging materials).

Unfortunately they're faced with similar problems as the Pact in the form of desertions and deteriorating vehicles and equipment. The longer they wait, the more thay may have to leave behind.

Same for the 8th really but I see them leaving by sea, if at all, possibly as part of the XI withdrawal (8th gets picked up first then the XI jumps onboard as the "fleet" sails past Bremerhaven).

[Abbott Shaull]

Would never say that everyone in the unit felt like that, bu it would be hard press to keep the spirits up for enough people before it started to affect the unit as they try to continue on the mission provided by the Division as they try to survive.

[Legbreaker]

Agreed. Once the realistion sunk in that the 8th was waaaaay behind lines with little hope of extracting itself, the best hope of keeping the unit together would be the strength in numbers angle.

[James Langham]

History excerpt from my campaign

In June the German Third Army lead by US IIth Corps moved out of its cantonments in what was the last major European offensive of the war. The target was once again the Baltic coast with the aim of taking control of the plentiful Baltic fishing resources and the profitable Vistula river traffic. Initially the drive was successful with the two US Divisions breaking through and exploiting rapidly. The 8th Division (Mechanised) is ordered to pursue fleeing Polish units and to undertake deep penetration raids. An overworked and overoptimistic staff officer at the 8th misread the map co-ordinates and added extra information that would give the 8th the ultimate aim of Kaliningrad to link up with the Free Latvian Army. This is the origin of the infamous left turn at Albuquerque legend where a navigational error by a junior officer was blamed for a 200km plus navigational error. The 5th Division aimed further south towards Lodz. Marines from the 2nd Marine Division launched amphibious operations on the Baltic coast and across the Vistula. The last of the Poles counter attacked and the remnants of four Soviet Armies turned towards the Third Army. 11th Corps was shattered by what was probably the last Soviet armoured units in Europe, lead by two armies that surprised all intelligence estimates with the speed of their movements. The 4th Guards Tank Army and 22nd Cavalry rolled into the 5th Division with over 100 modern tanks near Kalisz. The 5th was over-run and the last recorded message from its commander General Taylor was you're on your own, good luck. The 8th Division which was making good progress was cut off and contact was quickly lost, their fate is unknown. Of the US 11th Corps, only the 2nd Marine Division was in a position to retreat successfully with assistance from the Canadian 4th Mechanised Infantry Brigade.