Soviet 124th MRD

[Abbott Shaull]

Yeah both Europe and Korea would be meat grinders. It part of the reason like the 40th Mechanized Division were destroyed in Europe the excess personnel after reforming one Brigade were sent back to California to rebuild the rest of the Division.

[Legbreaker]

I don't think of Korea as a meat grinder as much as China was for the Soviets and Chinese, and Europe for those there. Plenty of casualties, sure, but not to the same degree as elsewhere, or even what was seen in the 50's.

There doesnt' seem to be enough units on either side to create the masses of casualties seen elsewhere and I can't recall any of the unit histories indicating it either.

Of course we don't exactly have a lot of coverage of this area in the books....

[Abbott Shaull]

I don't think of Korea as a meat grinder as much as China was for the Soviets and Chinese, and Europe for those there. Plenty of casualties, sure, but not to the same degree as elsewhere, or even what was seen in the 50's.

There doesnt' seem to be enough units on either side to create the masses of casualties seen elsewhere and I can't recall any of the unit histories indicating it either.

Of course we don't exactly have a lot of coverage of this area in the books....

Two of the Marine Divisions and 2nd Infantry and 7th Light Infantry Divisions had all taken a beaten.

[Legbreaker]

That's what you get for me posting without books handy to refer to....

Still, it's only a handful of units compared to elsewhere. What other US units are in Korea and what shape are they in

[Abbott Shaull]

For the US Army off the top of my head there was two Corps HQs. The 163rd Idaho National Guard Armor Cavalry Regiment which had been re-equipped with M115 (IIRC which were m113 with LAV-25 turrets on them).

Here is where the information

http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.phpt=519

8th US Army

II US Amphibious Corps

23rd Regiment, 4th Marine Division
Subordination: II US Amphibious Corps
Current Location: Inchon, South Korea
Manpower: 700
Tanks: 7 M60A3

5th Marine Division
Subordination: II US Amphibious Corps
Current Location: Kaesong, North Korea
Manpower: 2000
Tanks: 9 M60A3

16th Regiment, 6th Marine Division
Subordination: II US Amphibious Corps
Current Location: Weijei, North Korea
Manpower: 600
Tanks: 4 M60A3

II US Corps
1st Brigade, 7th Light Infantry Division
Subordination: II US Corps
Current Location:
Manpower: 500
Tanks: None.
Notes: The 1st Brigade was trapped in North Korea after the run for the Yalu River was pushed back by victorious Soviet forces breaking out of China. The 1st has been out of contact for 13 months now. It is known they are actively making their way south.

26th Light Infantry Division
Subordination: II US Corps
Current Location: Yujiaitu, South Korea
Manpower: 500
Tanks: 13 LAV-75

45th Infantry Division
Subordination: II US Corps
Current Location: Pusan, South Korea
Manpower: 2000
Tanks: None

VI US Corps

2nd Infantry Division
Subordination: VI US Corps
Current Location: Seoul, South Korea
Manpower: 2000
Tanks: 4 M1

25th Light Infantry Division
Subordination: VI US Corps
Current Location: Firebase Alpha, North Korea
Manpower: 600
Tanks: None

41st Infantry Division
Subordination: VI US Corps
Current Location: Firebase Juliet, North Korea
Manpower: 2000
Tanks: None

163rd Armored Cavalry Regiment
Subordination: VI US Corps
Current Location: Firebase Neccessity, South Korea
Manpower: 300
Tanks: 4 LAV-75

These units are still contact with the remains of the North Korean Army supported by Soviet units after their victory over China.

[Legbreaker]

Hmm, not exactly a huge amount of strength is there...

Of course there's the South Koreans and possibly a few other nations involved also since it is essentially supposed to be a UN force. Still, I can't see any real justification for nukes in the area - the North Koreans may have a handful, but would the UN authorise nuke use by "their" forces (On the other hand, is the UN even running the show anymore after November 97)

[Abbott Shaull]

Hmm, not exactly a huge amount of strength is there...

Of course there's the South Koreans and possibly a few other nations involved also since it is essentially supposed to be a UN force. Still, I can't see any real justification for nukes in the area - the North Koreans may have a handful, but would the UN authorise nuke use by "their" forces (On the other hand, is the UN even running the show anymore after November 97)

When did the UN ever run the show. Since 1951 when US Forces landed the US has called many of the military calls. The way the unified military command is set up, it would be pretty much the same. The only thing is in Korea their is UN Mandate that and they have been more than happy leaving the US in charge of it.

Much like in NATO the US takes the lead roles in many of the major commands with a few exception like the NorthAG and other allowed by other allies to command. One of the Sticky things now is with NATO is that many of the members are part of the European Union which include some other nations that are suppose to be Neutral. Yet, under European Union they have more less take the what was the BOAR and turned it into rapid reaction force of the EU. *shrug*

Or the fact that NATO sat by and allow the Russia Army ransack Georgia a couple years ago...

[Abbott Shaull]

You have to remember that for the most part, none of the major oversea command had received much in reinforcements. Up until the total collapse of the China-Soviet Front, and with the invasion of the Pacific Northwest. Reinforcement would of been scarce even before TDM in 1997. With the majority heading to Europe and Middle East and trickle going to the Korea.

[HorseSoldier]

Most of the heavy lifting in Twilight War Korea would be done by the ROK military, which fields a large conventional force that is pretty solid by developed world standards. It's a sideshow for the US and anyone else who shows up but it's the South Koreans central concern. US forces in theater look the way they do probably because they're not getting support from CONUS and can't locally recruit like units in Europe. Being almost entirely reserve formations probably doesn't help either.

[Abbott Shaull]

Yeah that most of the problem. Outside of the 2nd Infantry with the Armor and Mechanized Brigades and the 163rd Armor Cavalry Brigade and another heavy Brigades brought in by the 41st and 45th Infantry Division (one each), the rest of the force Light and Medium Brigades. Considering that 41st and 45th were bringing M113s and probably M60s too and the 163rd had M115s these units could be considered Medium compared to the other Heavy units already in country.

With the 7th, 25th and 26th all being Light Infantry Divisions Depending on if you go with three Light Brigade as they were organized with or go with 2 Light and one Medium Brigade. Not bad combination considering the terrain that the troops would have to operate in.

One thing I have always question was the 4th Marine Division (Reserve) and the two new raised division in the 5th and 6th Marine Division being Korea. These would of been the last of the troops sent into Korea. Honestly I see the 4th being sent to Middle East, to reinforce the MEF from California, while the MEF from Japan would be rushed to Korea.

Yeah like I state before I think Korea would of been at the end of line for getting replacements let alone reinforcements after the 5th and 6th Marine Divisions were sent over.

[HorseSoldier]

So far as I know, there were no plans on the books to stand back up 5th and 6th MarDivs in the event of a general shooting war, so suspect those guys were hurting in a big way for kit from day one. Possibly Korea was their destination because they weren't equipped to survive on the battlefield in Europe or the Middle East at the time they were deployed. While they seem to have held their own once in contact, I'd think those were some very shaky units when they went into the line, with the USMC also trying to cover battle casualty replacements for Europe and the Middle East.

[Legbreaker]

When did the UN ever run the show. Since 1951 when US Forces landed the US has called many of the military calls. The way the unified military command is set up, it would be pretty much the same. The only thing is in Korea their is UN Mandate that and they have been more than happy leaving the US in charge of it.

Yes, the 1950's Korean war was essentially led by the US, but it was, and remains a UN issue.
Also, the US is definitely not involved in a great deal of UN actions - take the following current actions:
MINURSO - Western Sahara
UNMIL - Liberia
UNMIS - Sudan
UNAMID - Darfur
MONUC - Congo

And that's just in Africa.... Of those, the US are only involved in Sudan and only have a handful of civilian police. That are certainly NOT running the show.

The same can be said for the majority of UN operations throughout the world. At best the US has a presence, but are NOT in command.

[Abbott Shaull]

Yeah that is the problem with the US. They don't like to play well with other unless they have the troops are general under US Command.

Besides in general many places in Africa and the Middle East don't take well to US troops being deployed, even as peace keeping and observers.