US Army AAA in T2K

[Abbott Shaull]

Thats the problem back then there wasn't much off the shelf buying. LAV-25 was one of the few exceptions...

[dragoon500ly]

About the only problem with that is the NIH syndrome, which infects the Pentagon. If GDLS (General Dynamics Land Systems) had their own turret design, with radar and twin 35-mm, and offered that to the Army, in a competition with Gepard, guess which would likely be the winner Unless Congress dictated an off-the-shelf purchase, in which case Gepard turrets on the M-1 chassis would be the likely solution.

And you can rest assured that if the DoD held bidding for a new ADA system, that the US-based manufactuers will go all out to out-bid any foreign builder...

Anybody remember the fun and games that Smith & Wesson pulled when the M-9 contract was let out For a while there I thought Beretta and S&W would hold gunfights out in the parking lot!

When Beretta won the trails, S&W had no problems with calling in their lobbyists and their in-house congressmen and throwing a monkey wrench into the approval process, they managed to delay the M-9 for almost two years...for a major contract like a new ADA system...you would think that the Cyberpunk game universe had come to life!

[Panther Al]

The IDF does stuff that makes sense for the IDF in its specific strategic and operational setting. Doesn't mean their stuff is a universal solution or a good idea for anyone else. Sometimes means their ideas aren't even a good idea for the IDF -- their refusal to maintain a balanced force structure with adequate infantry very, very nearly cost them the entire nation in 1972

Granted by all means, some of the solutions will be to problems only they will face, but on the whole, they have been ahead of a lot of trends in modern warfare.

Back on point, does anyone know what the US is using for AD now that they benched the linebacker

[Tegyrius]

Back on point, does anyone know what the US is using for AD now that they benched the linebacker

It looks like they're down to Stinger teams and Avenger HMMWVs. Gun systems seem to be completely dead... which, if true, bespeaks a high degree of (over)confidence in our air superiority.

- C.

[Mohoender]

I agree with everything which is said but we are talking of a war situation and that changes a lot of things. Of course, no chance that the element would be built outside US but taking over a foreign design (especially when it is only a part of it) has never been a problem.

I just remind you that without UK and their Merlin engine, the P-51 Mustang would have remained an unremarkable aircraft despite having a fantastic airframe.

Concerning a US army ADA system in T2K, the situation would have been exactly that. The DIVAD had just failed lamentably and they were pressed by time. As a result, I could very well see foreign sytems being adopted with let say "Ford Aerospace" being tasked with building the turrets and "General Dynamics Land System" assembling the vehicle (plus a fiar number of sub-contractors).

Then, it will possibly be operating in teams with Bradley-ADATS. Just an opinion.

[pmulcahy11b]

And you can rest assured that if the DoD held bidding for a new ADA system, that the US-based manufactuers will go all out to out-bid any foreign builder...

And have "unforeseen" cost overruns once manufacture started...

[Raellus]

It looks like they're down to Stinger teams and Avenger HMMWVs. Gun systems seem to be completely dead... which, if true, bespeaks a high degree of (over)confidence in our air superiority.

Indeed. It seems that the U.S. military has forgotten the lessons that the Brits learned the hard way in the Falklands, '82.

[Tegyrius]

Concerning a US army ADA system in T2K, the situation would have been exactly that. The DIVAD had just failed lamentably and they were pressed by time. As a result, I could very well see foreign sytems being adopted with let say "Ford Aerospace" being tasked with building the turrets and "General Dynamics Land System" assembling the vehicle (plus a fiar number of sub-contractors).

I think GDW's existing material implicitly reflects this pressure. The Second Edition ACVH presents PIVAD, LAV-PIVAD (but somehow missing the actual LAV-AD), Chaparral, Diana, ADATS, Roland II, M990, Duster, and the M21/M22 and XM12 laser systems all as systems in at least limited U.S. service. My inference is that in the years immediately before the Twilight War, the Army was throwing multiple ADA platforms at the proverbial wall in the hope that one or more would stick.

- C.

[TiggerCCW UK]

Indeed. It seems that the U.S. military has forgotten the lessons that the Brits learned the hard way in the Falklands, '82.

Have the Brits remembered I don't even know what AAA we're fielding these days.

[pmulcahy11b]

Although it's a vehicle that never was, I always liked the M990. It's fast, light, but reasonably armored, and carries a decent ammo load and decent-caliber guns. I put my own writeup of it on my Best SP Antiaircraft Vehicles that Never Were page, and gave it the name of "Chamberlain," after one of my heroes, Joshua Chamberlain of the Civil War.

[Panther Al]

Although it's a vehicle that never was, I always liked the M990. It's fast, light, but reasonably armored, and carries a decent ammo load and decent-caliber guns. I put my own writeup of it on my Best SP Antiaircraft Vehicles that Never Were page, and gave it the name of "Chamberlain," after one of my heroes, Joshua Chamberlain of the Civil War.

I'm totally behind you on that choice, of both fondness and the name for it. While I can't see anyway for it to exist in the real world, I felt that it was in game terms a very good example of how to put together an SPAAG: Base it off of a light vehicle for mobility, cost, and ease of production, and give it solid amounts of firepower, and armour it to the point where light cannon fire, from say a wild weasel, has to get lucky to put it out of action - but no more. As to the name, I spent more than a few years growing up in Maine, have relatives still living there, and the name you picked was pure win. Gotta love the civil war period for one thing: it was the last war where an amateur can leave college, having taught nothing even remotely close to anything military in nature, and still be able to lead troops not only well from a leadership point of view, but actually very successfully in end results in a battlefield environment.

[Raellus]

Although it's a vehicle that never was, I always liked the M990. It's fast, light, but reasonably armored, and carries a decent ammo load and decent-caliber guns. I put my own writeup of it on my Best SP Antiaircraft Vehicles that Never Were page, and gave it the name of "Chamberlain," after one of my heroes, Joshua Chamberlain of the Civil War.

I'm with you on this one too. Your assessment is spot-on. Good call.

[schnickelfritz]

The Linebacker was withdrawn from service. I believe that the current solution is the HMMWV based Avenger.

Some times I believe it would be useful to have the idiots at the Pentagon who make decisions like the total clusterXXXX that has been the post cold war US forward AAA situation listen to Iraqi and German verterans of Gulf War 1 and Normandy who can tell them how paralyzing it is to be under relentless air attack.

If you can find a surviving German vet of the Eurpoean campaign, ask him what it's like.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN/TWQ-1_Avenger

-Dave

[pmulcahy11b]

I'm personally mystified by the decision to withdraw the Linebacker. I'd love to hear the thinking at the top on that decision. It seems like the perfect vehicle for its mission, since it's almost entirely a Bradley except for its mission fit and fits in perfectly with a mechanized or armored division.

[pmulcahy11b]

If you can find a surviving German vet of the Eurpoean campaign, ask him what it's like.

-Dave

That may be part of the problem -- except for a little bit during the Korean War, the Western militaries of the world know little of what it's like to be on the receiving end of air power. Perhaps we need to talk to the Israelis, but they haven't seen much on the receiving end of air strikes since the 1973 War, either.