Soviet medium mortars in T2K

[schnickelfritz]

I must admit that I don't feel that Soviet industry would continue to be able to or want to produce the complicated 82mm 2B9 Vasilek automortar after the TDM.

It seems like that the resonable solution to maintain some production with limited resources would be to use the WW2 82mm PM-37 design, a simple, conventional mortar.

Any thoughts

-Dave

[Panther Al]

To be quite honest, if they was going to revert to any basic simple tube morts, I think they would focus on the 120. The only advantage the 82 has over a 120 is that it isn't as heavy, but as armies worldwide have discovered, its not that big an advantage to keep it in heavy use and production. The 2B9 has another advantage that really makes it stand out, as everyone knows, its mortar, its an automatic cannon, and it even sings dixie! (OK, maybe not the last) And yet, its still lighter than a 120. The dang thing is so good, that for a while you could look on SATS (An US Army Training Program that does all sorts of cool things) and order a mounting kit for it so you can slap it on your HMMWV.


Yes, We had a mounting for it.

But to go back to your question, it would depend, if there was any manufacturing ability other than at a most basic level, they would stick to the 2B9, if not, they would go in my mind to the 120 tube.

[HorseSoldier]

120's are real nice until you're foot slogging infantry and have to carry one and the ammo for it. At which point it ceases to be a company fire support asset immediately. The 8cm-ish mortar fell out of favor as more and more mechanization entered the equation. With less and less mechanization in the equation in T2K the 81s and 82s will make a comeback, particularly when you also figure in that that it takes less explosive, metal, and such to make ammo for one of them than for a 120 or 4.2" mortar.

I personally see the standard 82mm making a comeback -- for the above reasons and because they'll be a lot more forgiving of poor quality control than a Vasilek. I'd also expect that a lot of Soviet units that saw time on the Chinese front might have acquired captured Chinese 82mm mortars and put them to use here and there.

(But then I always like to confuse PCs with odd bits of Chinese kit that Russian and other WP veterans had hauled back from the Eastern Front . . .)

[Legbreaker]

Don't forget though that there's likely to be a lot of pre-war Vasilek's floating about and that there may not be a pressing need to make more tubes. A unit may be able to make do with the tubes they already have, due to their reduced manpower as the war grinds on. Of course that doesn't account for tubes captured by enemy action, destroyed when the unit is nuked, etc...
Wear and tear may also be a factor, but I doubt it's going to be as influential as the others.

[schnickelfritz]

What I am thinking of are Mobilization only and Cat 3 divisions, like the 124th MRD.

The 12.0cm PM-38 heavy mortar is as basic as it gets, while still being somewhat mobile. This piece set the pattern for basic, effective heavy mortars and was loved so much by the Germans that they used it as the pattern for the 12.0cm SGrW 42 and captured every one they could get.

The design was improved with the 12.0cm PM-43 and later 12.0cm 2B11, all being lighter versions of the same configuration.

I know a fellow with a wartime 8.0cm GrW 34 and carrying it while broken down is a chore, much less enough ammo to do any real effect.

Make that double or triple for a heavy mortar. As it is, the 12.0cm Soviet mortars do not really disassemble except for maintenance, the two wheeled carriage is permanently attached.

I would think that the 12.0cm models would be hooked to either a horse draw caisson of some type or pulled behind any truck large enough to pull it and carry a useful ammo load. At 70 pounds a case of 2 rounds, that's up to the GM to set, I think. I would assume you'd use a Ural 375 or similar vehicle whenever available.

A 12.0cm mortar seems to be the standard artillery piece in the year 2000 T2K setting for most pact usint of regimental size and up.

As far as the medium mortars go, I would assume there would be legions of WW2 era 82mm versions gathering dust in warehouses for this type of situation.

It's my impression that the Soviets/Russians NEVER throw useful weapons away. It's my understanding that they had warehouses of captured, arsenal serviced, preserved ex-Wehrmacht small arms until the mid-1990's. My guess is that they still do, even after selling a ton of that stuff off.

Thanks-
Dave

[Panther Al]

Hrm. Alright, I can see where a medium in the range of 82mm can be rather useful, the way I was looking at it, is regardless of the size, more often than not the mort and its ammo will be on a cart of some sort, if thats the case, my thinking was why not use the big one, not the medium

[Raellus]

I agree that the "old-fashioned" 82mm would be common in Red Army units by 2000. They're simple, man-portable, and provide units of company and battalion size with effective indirect firepower. If terrorist groups like the IRA and PLO can make their own mortar-type launchers/bombs, then I would imagine it would be relatively easy to continue manufacture mortar ammo after the TDM. v2.2 introduced the shop-built WOJO mortar, capable of firing 81mm (NATO) and 82mm (WARPACT) bombs. Of all the "what-if" weapons of the late Twilight War, I think that the WOJO is one of the more plausible.

I think there's a line somewhere in the v1.0 or v2.2 rulebook that says that the mortar is the most common and widely used indirect fire support weapon in every army come 2000.

[Legbreaker]

With more and more units becoming foot mobile with a sprinkling of vehicles and livestock for the heavy equipment, I can definitely see mid range motars being exceptionally useful. They wouldn't want to be manpacked very far (a few kilometres would probably be far enough), but they do give a unit much needed supporting fire.

The big guns wouldn't be thrown away, however with the limited transportation options available in 2000, they would probably be restricted to defensive positions (cantonments) and along roadways and other transportation corridors (rivers and railways).

[HorseSoldier]

v2.2 introduced the shop-built WOJO mortar, capable of firing 81mm (NATO) and 82mm (WARPACT) bombs. Of all the "what-if" weapons of the late Twilight War, I think that the WOJO is one of the more plausible.

I think that one started out in the ver 1.0 Heavy Weapons Guide, but may be wrong.

I think there's a line somewhere in the v1.0 or v2.2 rulebook that says that the mortar is the most common and widely used indirect fire support weapon in every army come 2000.

I think in the timeline for '99 or 2000 there's verbiage about how mortars and ammunition for them is still being cranked out by combatants who lack the resources to make hydraulic buffers and high strength cannon barrels for howitzers and such.

[Abbott Shaull]

I believe they were both the v1 Heavy weapon guide and later in the basic rules at revision to give examples. It was one of the things the original rule set had pointed out, and adding them basic rules in later addition made sense to reinforce the point.

Honestly, I think any Militia or military units would keep their larger weapon in defensive position, even the 120 mm Mortars too. I can see these crews having responsibility of Medium or Light Mortars too that they take to the field for short duration operation in support of their units, depending on the needs. Like the Striker Brigade Mortar teams carry a lighter mortar that the gun crew can set up outside of the vehicle as needed. Even if the unit didn't have horses or other transport I can see where some troops could be pressed into service to move them by hand over limited distances.

[Abbott Shaull]

The next thing is that in light troops on NATO side the 81mm and 4.1" mortars were the heavy Mortars at Battalion while 60mm or smaller were company level. While on the Pact and Heavy NATO units the 81mm/4.1" Mortars were Company level weapons in Infantry type and some other units and the 120mm was the Mortars at Battalion with the exception being the Armor Cavalry units that had them down to Troop level.

[Legbreaker]

60mm may be the standard Company mortar for the US, but MANY countries throughout Nato and the world use the 81mm almost exclusively (60mm isn't even an option).

[Abbott Shaull]

60mm may be the standard Company mortar for the US, but MANY countries throughout Nato and the world use the 81mm almost exclusively (60mm isn't even an option).

The 60mm was used in the Light Infantry, Airborne Infantry and Air Assault Companies. Rest of the companies in the US Army that have been using 81mm and 120mm. At a time I think even Ranger Platoons had a 1 or two 60mm Mortar assigned to them too.

Yeah are quite correct that for the rest it seem the 81mm is the way to go. Even though I know there was time when the British fielded the 51mm and other versions of light mortars.

The thing is I think by 2000 as Artillery and even ammo for the various gernade launchers gets harder to find, one could see more and more of the lighters mortars to come back. The WOJO Mortars bombs were 60mm with optional attachment fins to allow them to be fire from 81 and 82mm mortars.

[Legbreaker]

Other way round actually. 82mm with wooden sabots for the 60mm rounds. You'd NEVER manage to fire an 82 from 60mm no matter how hard you tried!

[perardua]

The British used 51mm mortars in Flight/Platoon HQs until very recently (we had them with us when we deployed to Afghanistan in 2009), and they were primarily used to lob up illum. Originally the 40mm UGL was supposed to replace the 51mm, but due to the fact we still don't have 40mm illum in service, and because light 'commando' mortars are useful, they have been retained. In fact, the British forces recently introduced a 60mm replacement for the 51mm, which we also took with us to theatre when we went out. It's pretty much the same general design - barrel with integral baseplate, no bipod, simple sights. The Army infantry don't have a company level mortar at all, it's either platoon level (51mm or 60mm) or battalion level (81mm). RAF Regiment Squadrons are about the size of a reinforced company, and we do use 81mm mortars grouped into the fourth (Support Weapons) Flight.
During my tour, I was on the Support Weapons Flight of my squadron, and we spent about half our time firing 81mm mortars in support of the Rifle Flights (the other half was spent on patrols and OPs). In my experience, the 81mm is a very effective weapon system, though the weight of the weapon and ammunition means that manpacking it is not an easy proposition. We also mentored a Bulgarian unit stationed with us who were using 82mm mortars, as there were plans for them to take over some of our tasks and free us up for patrols, but their fire control procedures and very high failure rate meant it never came through (watching them fire illum one night, almost three quarters of the parachutes opened late, didn't open, or opened but then caught fire).