Infantry vs. Armored Vehicles. Questions about rules.

[Marc]

Ei! Bona nit!

Finally, the excess of post-its in my v2.2 rulebook have forced me to rewrite my houserules in a more organized way. And, of course, a new reading of these notes makes me rediscover certain old solutions that do not convince me right now. So I will appreciate if anybody can give me an opinion about these matters. The following points regard to armored vehicles vs. infantry combat in an urban area.

1. With v2.2 rulebook, you can determine, for example, if an explosion opens a gap in the wall of house. But do you use any system to decide if a building is destroyed due to the effect of sustained direct or indirect artillery fire
2. If any type of AP round penetrates the wall of a buildings room, do you apply any kind of damage to the personnel inside
3. And if the wall is penetrated by an explosive round Do you apply the normal damage for an explosion to the personnel inside Is any concussion damage absorbed by the wall
4. How many degrees could I consider that tank turret is able to turn in 5 sec. combat turn And, thinking specifically about a tracked vehicle, which is the pivoting turn ratio
5. How do you solve the observation rolls of the crew of an armored vehicle to detect enemy infantry at close range, (all the crewmembers inside the vehicle, hatches closed)

Arreveure!

[kcdusk]

1. with v2.2 you can work out how big a hole is made due to arty or RPG etc. I'd say that if > half a wall is knocked down, then the wall is destroyed. Does that mean the whole house falls down I dont know, it depends on what the house is made out of etc. and maybe how many stories it is. There was an article in challenge that spoke of ruined buildings, i might need to dig it out. For lots of arty falling on a house, determine average damage and hole size per shell, and apply that to walls/roofs to see how much damage is being down (saves dice rolling for each round).


2. Hmm, if AP round penetrates a wall, it looses some "damage" or explosion factor for breaching the wall. Then apply whats left to whomever is in the room. I've not done this, but think it possible. Many half the burst radius and apply damage to persons in the room as a starting point.


3. Same as above.


4. I seen a post on the old site that gave some examples. But from memory, and in my game, most turrents could do a 360 within 5 seconds.


5. Exposed commander or crew member in a hatch get normal observation rolls. Driver can make observation checks one level harder and can only observe in the forward 90 degree wedge.

Infantry buttoned up with hatches closed cannot make any checks.

Infantry looking out hatches make observation rolls at two levels difficulty harder. By all accounts it really is hard to see how of weapon ports.

[kcdusk]

your post has an "urban combat" feel to it. Heres some ideas i wrote up and kept in a word doc. re optional rules that might suit you.


Urban Combat
Reduced AGL if wearing body armour. Agility is reduced by 1 (or 2 if its old and/or bulky armour). Also, increase the amount of AGL D10 checks a PC needs to take for some tasks like getting over a wall or fence, climbing up onto the side of a tank there will be others. Failure might see a PC sprain an ankle, back pain or break an arm depending on the action and another die roll (ie slight wounds from these non-combat type actions. But they could add up).

Increased fatigue for wearing body armour in urban environment. For each 4 hour period on patrol or on watch, it qualifies as a period of oehard work as per the RB. In addition, roll D10 v CON. A failure means it counts as an additional period of hard work (in effect that 4 hour period is equivalent to 8 hours of hard work). If the soldier is not adequately rationed with water/food, a D10 roll equal to CON is assumed to have failed the CON test. If the soldier is adequately rationed and rolls equal to CON they are assumed to have passed the check.

Also, only half a PCs load capacity can be carried in urban combat/patrols to reflect the hard work required in MOUT. If more than half but up to the normal load capacity is carried, then another 1 to AGL & CON applies to tasks and another fatigue point per time period is added (ie a 4 hour patrol is hard work as per RB, and if a PC has > half load capacity then when he takes his CON it is at 1 for carrying > half load capacity, and if that CON check fails he is said to have had 1 additional period of hard work if wearing body armour and possibly another fatigue point for being encumbered. So a single 4 hour period of duty in urban could equate to 3 levels of hard work for the day).

The effect of the rules above is to reflect the hard work and nature of MOUT operations and make PCs choose between body armour or not (a trade off) and also equipment to carry on patrol (another trade off). From all my readings it seems that MOUT is hard (hence CON and fatigue effects), patrols carry the least amount of gear as possible (hence half loads) and also some soldiers chose not to wear body in MOUT due to its fatiguing effects and also reduced flexibility (AGL).

Communication difficulties in city/high rise/large amount of other electrical items in small area. For every radio contact, a radio check is required to contact the other party. This reflects the difficulty in the environment and it may be only half or so radio contacts are able to be made leaving groups in the dark re some important issues in MOUT (what are the rest of your forces doing What reports on enemy movement are you missing Where are you moving in relation to your own forces Into their fire lane maybe).

Reduced LOS (closer encounters) - table below requires two rolls to determine city encounter ranges. Roll D6 to see which range increment to roll. Some encounters will be very close (D20M) and simulate oebumping into an enemy (like rounding a corner) and maybe Melee is a better option than rifles Also, Pistols and SMGs come into play more over Sniper rifles etc if a quick draw is required at short range.

And range is less likely to be long but it could be (10D100m = 1,000m) which reflects seeing a target down a road or in an upper level of a building.

1st roll D6 2nd roll for actual distance
Range
D6 Urban
1 D20m
2 2D20m
3 D10X10m
4 D10X25m
5 D10x25m
6 D10X100m


Navigation problems streets/alleys, knowing where both friend and foe locations, destinations and firelanes are. Make navigation checks more regularly where friend or foe movement is concerned. Also a failed Nav check could mean you get lost, stumble into a fellow units fire lane or your own group thinks they have found a building where the enemy should be but really its the wrong building and is full of your own friendly troops. This reflects real life reports of blue on blue fire and also how difficult it can be just to move to where you want to go (Mogadishu/Blackhawk down example).

3 dimensional combat (underground, ground, upper stories) Have encounters come out of nowhere (D20m range) like man holes, side rooms, from around corners, from the rear (is anyone watching the 6 Or staying back to ensure that cleared room stays clear for exit).

NPCs & PCs have more hard cover available than normal.

Some of these items require radio or navigation checks which I hope is another way of encouraging PCs to take non-combat skills that are essential to have. Also, in a multi person party it means specialists can be played like Radio-man is not just someone with a oe1 in electronics making oeautomatic success tasks like contacting HQ or your covering group on the radio, and a navigation man (or local guide) is needed just to make sure you get to where you are going (little own the other challenges your party may face). He will need a high electronics skill and need to pass real skill checks at difficult, formidable or impossible levels (as opposed to automatic successs).

I hope these ideas add some more flavour to MOUT combat and encounters.

[Fusilier]

#2 - None.

[Targan]

#2 - None.

With respect, I disagree. There would be the masonry equivalent of spalling in a narrow cone entering the room IMO.

[jester]

I would beg to differ with some of them.

Navigation,

If you are familiar with the area, then you will know the landmarks. Thats whats cool about urban, so many landmarks.

As for body armor and encumbrance;

Eh, the thing is in urban you are moving forward, then stopping alot. You will sit for a good portion of time as your point goes forward, this is where bounding overwatch is pretty good. So, the fatigue will not be a big issue in my view. Certainly not like operating in open ground.

As for distances,

This is something I have pondered, what about arming distances for some weapons, like 40mm grenades and rockets. Since distances can be much closer, would you be able effectively use them Will the weapon arm before it impacts And of course being caught in the blast area or frying yourself or your team with a backblast.

And, lets throw a penality for armored vehicles operating, or a bonus for troops attacking vehicles from higher floors of a building since they will now be attacking the top of the vehicle which will sorely limit the vehicles ability to return fire.

Urban is an infantrymans nightmare, but its worse for armor.

[Nowhere Man 1966]

your post has an "urban combat" feel to it. Heres some ideas i wrote up and kept in a word doc. re optional rules that might suit you.




Communication difficulties in city/high rise/large amount of other electrical items in small area. For every radio contact, a radio check is required to contact the other party. This reflects the difficulty in the environment and it may be only half or so radio contacts are able to be made leaving groups in the dark re some important issues in MOUT (what are the rest of your forces doing What reports on enemy movement are you missing Where are you moving in relation to your own forces Into their fire lane maybe).

I know I'm muddying the waters a bit but is you use a VHF-Hi (137 - 174 Mc) or better yet, UHF (400 - 512 Mc or even 800 Mc and up), you would generally have better comms in an urban environment, that's why many cities use UHF for their police and emergency comms. Out in the country, VHF-Lo (30 - 88 Mc) is best because it can cover a longer distance but is more prone to interference in urban areas.

Chuck M.

[Marc]

Communications surely deserve a new skill in T2k. The technical knowledge of the different types of radio, the installation and control of field phone lines, the knowledge of the best antenna type to use, the communication protocol and radio discipline, the detection and location of enemy emissions...

I'm afraid that Communications skill needs the emancipation from Electronics skill.

[Marc]

Regarding the points of my initial post.

1. The solution of Kcdusk seems good and simple enough. I more than half of the wall disappears, all the wall falls down. Then, use common sense to determine if the wall was important for the structure of the building.

2. None of the AP rounds listed in the rulebook has any concussion value. And this coincides with the opinion of Targan and Fusilier. The only damage would be caused by direct contact or by the cone of fragmented masonry. But I thought that actual AP rounds had an small explosive or incendiary charge, not as old WWII AP rounds. I suppose that this charge can be negligible in this type of situation (without an armor plate).

3. About the direct fire of an explosive round against the wall I will consider that the characters inside are in the primary burst area. But I will not take into account concussion damage unless the rounds enters through a previous hole or through a window and explodes directly inside the room.

4. 360o in 5 sec. seems to fast. But no idea. I will try to investigate the matter.

5. A question emerged to me. During combat, with all the hatches closed, is the commander the only crew member that is able to scan 360o around his vehicle through a periscope

[Nowhere Man 1966]

Communications surely deserve a new skill in T2k. The technical knowledge of the different types of radio, the installation and control of field phone lines, the knowledge of the best antenna type to use, the communication protocol and radio discipline, the detection and location of enemy emissions...

I'm afraid that Communications skill needs the emancipation from Electronics skill.

I think that is a good idea although it can be a cascade skill where Communications can also use electronics but at half the skill and vice versa. Of course, this might have to be boiled down to radio use and so on.

Chuck M.

[Targan]

The system used in my campaign has a much vaster skill list than any of the original T2K systems and we have a skill called Communications Operation.

[Fusilier]

I said 'none' for number 2 as there is no explosive in the round.

Targan, yes I agree about the masonry, but think you'd have to be pretty much in the way of the round to be hit by it. And unless it hit your face I don't think it'd do much damage. Not saying you are wrong or I am right... just saying.

[Marc]

Bona nit!

About the Navigation skill in urban combat i think I will use Kcsusk suggestion.

From the point of view of a group of characters entering for the first time in a disputed urban area, the use of navigation skill can be especially important.
Perhaps the group have not any map of the city. If the characters have not get enough information before entering the area, a military map will be usually at 1:25000 scale and it is not the most appropriate system to plot a coordinate movement. Of course, the presence of characteristic buildings, big squares, main roads and others can help. But the urban scenery will be deformed by rubble. Some streets will be blocked and the signs can be obscured or changed by the defender.

And, after all, the real problem is not to get lost. The use of navigation skill can help the referee to answer questions like: Will the group spend precious time to link with an allied unit Will they know the best alternate and passable route for their 2 1/2 truck, after having found the main street blocked Will the scout remember if that route is covered from that high building occupied by enemy forces

The level of the navigation check may be adjusted by the information required and the familiarity with the area. The battle hardened sniper who has been fighting in the city for tree months knows that if he goes through the gap in the wall of the warehouse and crawls under the burnt car, he will find the entrance to the sewer system that will allow him to gain a good shooting position over that 2 1/2 truck that has found the obstacle he has prepared yesterday. For sure the truck crew will choose that predictable alternate route where he will be waiting, with the patience of the hunter.

In other RPG's, skills as "local knowledge" or "tactics:urban combat" would cover those kind of situations, leaving to the navigation skill the simple task to decide if the group get lost.

And from the Murphy's Laws of Combat (Challenge#57): "The most dangerous weapon in your enemy's arsenal is one of your own second lieutenants carrying a map and a compass."

[jester]

The thing about urban and getting lost.

Yes, in a town or city thats been blown to bits the landmarks will be defaced and altered. But, the same will be with obstacles. Not so much point A to point B via a map. But having to do a very round about route to get there is what makes it so easy to become lost in urban fighting.

[kcdusk]

Bona nit!

About the Navigation skill in urban combat i think I will use Kcsusk suggestion.

Even with maps in an urban zone, populations have been known to take down street signs or exchange street signs in an effort to confuse an enemy force.

Most of my "urban house rules" came as i was putting an iraqui type scenario together (or thing black hawk down - the movie).