Don't have my "Into the Howling Wilderness" yet...

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Did Fort Knox get hit I'm guessing that's a yes.

The reason I ask is : would a military desperate enough for armor pull down and try to salvage/refurbish some of the less onerous stuff from the museum there Regardless of sending it to Europe or using it at home (in AK to hold off the Reds there, or against Division Cuba or the Mexicans).

Curious.

Oh, also, I seem to recall that the AMARC did not get pasted: it's full of a/c and parts, and while avgas is of course a huge issue, even a handful of refurbed or salvaged A1s or Huns flying - albeit rarely - could be a HUGE asset for one of the above situations for either CivGov or MilGov.

[Legbreaker]

I was looking at that a month or so ago and I think it's not on the list of targets....
Milgov did pull out of the area though, and it's well out of Civgovs region so.....

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I was looking at that a month or so ago and I think it's not on the list of targets....
Milgov did pull out of the area though, and it's well out of Civgovs region so.....

AMARC or Ft. Knox

[Legbreaker]

Fort Knox. I'm going from memory though, but I'll check in a couple of hours.

[HorseSoldier]

I'm pretty certain Knox was not nuked, it doesn't have anything there that would warrant a nuke in T2K's exchange.

Nothing at the Patton museum would be of real value, outside an exemplar or two of stuff still in the inventory that 194th probably took with them when they left the area. All the vintage and foreign stuff would be maintenance deadlined within 100 miles or a couple months. It's value would be some impressive pill boxes and that's about it.

AMARC may be in Mexican hands. In any case post TDM I don't think the distribution network to get parts and qualified maintainers married up with lower cost airframes is available, which is a bigger show stopper (or a deal breaker) before the fuel crunch enters the equation.

[Legbreaker]

Confirmed. Ft Knox is not on the list and there's no mention of it being attacked in Howling Wilderness.
In fact there doesn't appear to be any strikes anywhere near Ft Knox.

Quote:
"The western part of Kentucky is controlled by Milgov, but as in Tennessee, the military government has not been able to extend it's control eastward."

From that I think it's fairly clear Ft Knox has been abandoned.

[Tegyrius]

"The western part of Kentucky is controlled by Milgov, but as in Tennessee, the military government has not been able to extend it's control eastward."

From that I think it's fairly clear Ft Knox has been abandoned.

As a Kentucky native, I have to say that quote isn't conclusive. Knox is on the eastern fringe of what I generally consider "western Kentucky."

- C.

[Canadian Army]

Confirmed. Ft Knox is not on the list and there's no mention of it being attacked in Howling Wilderness.
In fact there doesn't appear to be any strikes anywhere near Ft Knox.

Quote:
"The western part of Kentucky is controlled by Milgov, but as in Tennessee, the military government has not been able to extend it's control eastward."

From that I think it's fairly clear Ft Knox has been abandoned.

I fined is highly unlikely, the Milgov would have not secure the United States Bullion Depository (located adjacent to Fort Knox); precious metals, like gold are likely to the only thing close to currency (most likely the Milgov would be using the gold standard).

[Legbreaker]

True, there is the depository to think about....
However, does Milgov have the strength to post more than a token presence there Would they be confident in it's inbuilt security to risk leaving it unguarded for a year or two while they used their thinly spread troops elsewhere
What, besides the depository, is in the area that would warrant a presence

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I'm pretty certain Knox was not nuked, it doesn't have anything there that would warrant a nuke in T2K's exchange.

Nothing at the Patton museum would be of real value, outside an exemplar or two of stuff still in the inventory that 194th probably took with them when they left the area. All the vintage and foreign stuff would be maintenance deadlined within 100 miles or a couple months. It's value would be some impressive pill boxes and that's about it.

Ah, but they do have a pretty well-equipped machine shop for restoration and repair of the working models - that'd have some value to one side or the other (an AFV repair shop, that is).

AMARC may be in Mexican hands. In any case post TDM I don't think the distribution network to get parts and qualified maintainers married up with lower cost airframes is available, which is a bigger show stopper (or a deal breaker) before the fuel crunch enters the equation.

Oh I'm not suggesting it'd be a day at the aircraft mall or anything, just that it'd be a long-term asset worth grabbing, (or grabbing back as the case may be).

...which also leaves me wondering what shape Mexican oil production is in.

[HorseSoldier]

True, there is the depository to think about....
However, does Milgov have the strength to post more than a token presence there Would they be confident in it's inbuilt security to risk leaving it unguarded for a year or two while they used their thinly spread troops elsewhere
What, besides the depository, is in the area that would warrant a presence

I'd anticipate a very well defended convoy from Fort Knox headed to the MilGov Colorado cantonment at some point along the way unless the gold had already been moved or otherwise accounted for.

Probably some interesting adventure ideas in there without replaying Armies of the Night in the midwest.

Ah, but they do have a pretty well-equipped machine shop for restoration and repair of the working models - that'd have some value to one side or the other (an AFV repair shop, that is).

It obviously has some value, but I'd anticipate anything the was portable was taken by 194th when they moved out, leaving only the stuff that was simply immobile. In any case, I don't think they have the ability to support even, say, a company team sized element of obsolete AFVs on active operations, even if they do have the ability to get a Panther or Tiger to crank up enough for a parade.

[Legbreaker]

I think the gold was discussed a month or two ago and it was estimated "4000+ tonnes of gold would require approximately 80 trucks assuming a 50+ tonne capacity."

A lot of fuel and protection required there, along with a lot of secure storage space at the other end. Of course getting it out requires getting through all the built in security which apparently requires the codes from eight different people (going from memory here). Could cut/blast the way in, but if you can't get all the gold in one go, then the rest will be open to scavengers/thieves/the security detail left behind.

In my mind it's probably safer left exactly where it is in exactly the same condition - ie locked up tight!

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I'd anticipate a very well defended convoy from Fort Knox headed to the MilGov Colorado cantonment at some point along the way unless the gold had already been moved or otherwise accounted for.

Probably some interesting adventure ideas in there without replaying Armies of the Night in the midwest.



It obviously has some value, but I'd anticipate anything the was portable was taken by 194th when they moved out, leaving only the stuff that was simply immobile. In any case, I don't think they have the ability to support even, say, a company team sized element of obsolete AFVs on active operations, even if they do have the ability to get a Panther or Tiger to crank up enough for a parade.

You know what

Hm.

I'll get back to you guys. :>

[HorseSoldier]

I think the gold was discussed a month or two ago and it was estimated "4000+ tonnes of gold would require approximately 80 trucks assuming a 50+ tonne capacity."

A lot of fuel and protection required there, along with a lot of secure storage space at the other end. Of course getting it out requires getting through all the built in security which apparently requires the codes from eight different people (going from memory here). Could cut/blast the way in, but if you can't get all the gold in one go, then the rest will be open to scavengers/thieves/the security detail left behind.

In my mind it's probably safer left exactly where it is in exactly the same condition - ie locked up tight!

Without some sort of security force to intervene, any safe or vault, even a complex like the depository at Ft. Knox, just represents a time/distance equation for defeating its security measures. Admittedly, it would be a pretty major undertaking, but with CivGov, MilGov, and New America (plus minor/regional powers) in the game, I don't know that anyone would feel comfortable leaving anything of strategic value unattended in circa 2000 America.

So I'd think that MilGov would make an effort to get the gold out if/when they decided to pull the plug on Ft Knox. Rather than trucking it, they could haul it on the Ohio River, since the 194th seems to mostly have been oriented on river lines when it moved out of the Knox area. To get it all the way to Colorado Springs could be a trick using river lines, but it might be part of the cantonments in Cairo or Memphis, once the latter is cleared.

Or depending on the time frame that the decision was made to relocate the gold, it may have been feasible to move it by rail or even fly it elsewhere (the latter unlikely, I think, but someone could have made a forward looking call before things hit rock bottom). A couple C-5s could have hauled the supply to Colorado Springs in a reasonable number of sorties, if the airframes and fuel were available at that point in time.

[Legbreaker]

Quote: "The United States Bullion Depository holds 4,603 tons (4,176 metric tons) of gold bullion."

Now lets put that into perspective shall we
The M-1A2 Abrams which was about the best US tank available at the time has a dry weight of 62.1 tonnes.

4,176 divided by 62.1 equals 67.25 tanks.

The C-5 can carry 122,470 kilograms, or 122.47 tonnes. This is just less than two tanks.

So, basically we need 34 flights by a C-5 Galaxy to shift all the gold, and that's gold only, doesn't include any passengers, security, additional equipment, etc. To do the job right we're looking at about 40 flights.

Ok, so still doable.... Lets look at fuel. Presuming you're travelling only halfway across the country and back, that's about one load of fuel - 193,600 litres.

40 flights of say 190,000 litres and you're looking at 7.6 million litres of aviation fuel. This is approximately 8 months of Ploesti's post war production rate - the 2000 Pact counteroffensive only had one month's worth to play with.

Given that the US government did not split until mid 1998 well after the November 1997 nuclear strikes, I have great difficulty in believing that much fuel would be available.