OT: Mr. Obama's War has Started

[dragoon500ly]

Well, at a time when he is keeping his promise to wind down the war in Iraq, President Obama has decided to join the European Union in a series of strikes against Libya. The first of 112 Tomahawk cruise missiles were launched at 20 Libyan military sites along the Med coast.

France has joined in with overflights of a rebel stronghold and there are reports that a Libyan fighter was shot down by a French fighter, the talking heads are all broadcasting different stories on that one...

Looks like 2011 is going to be a very intresting year!

[pmulcahy11b]

A no-fly zone is largely symbolic, perhaps even useless. Khadaffi can defeat the rebels with ground forces alone. The only way we can really help the rebels and prevent a massacre is to attack Khadaffi's army before they can get into Benghazi. We really dithered around too much about doing this -- a no-fly zone and ground strikes should have started about a week ago, while the rebels were on the rise. The rebels are almost defeated now, and a no-fly zone isn't going to do more than perhaps being a morale-booster.

[perardua]

French forces have already been reported as having destroyed four Libyan armoured vehicles and bombed Libyan military bases, in addition to the British/US cruise missile strikes.

[Webstral]

Elected governments have trouble moving decisively.

[Grimace]

Yeah, I have a feeling the whole thing is too late for the rebels. Lots of feet dragging when over two weeks ago I was seeing news footage from the AP where Libyan rebels were saying they needed training and a way to stop the Libyan air force. This was back when they controlled 2/3 of Libya. Now they're down to just a couple of towns left.

[dragoon500ly]

To be sure, I really don't belive that a no-fly zone is going to stop the good Colonel one bit. One of the Swiss news agencies that I watch is talking about a ceasefire between the loyalist and the rebels...their talking head had a good one, "It is not in Colonel Khadaffi's intrests to agree to a cease-fire."

If NATO/European Union is serious about stopping this, then it means committing troops as peacekeepers. I don't believe that the political will exists to do this.

At least not yet.

[Abbott Shaull]

What a joke, yet we let the ACC use their force to calm stop the people for protesting in Country where the US Central Command has staging and command & control assets in as well as the military units are coming from other US backed allies.

Talk about you double standard.

Now back to the about the good old Colonel. Well, yeah anything short of UN/EU/US grounds units being sent into Libya, the rebels don't stand a chance. Which I will find more ironic is the fact that we have left this lunatic in charge, much for the same reason one was left in power in Iraq. We knew what we were dealing with them left in charge. The most worrisome thing is after he gone, who will fill the power vacuum.

One of the problems again, is the good Colonel is no idiot. He realizes at this point and time many of the nation who could send military into region to slap his hands don't have the assets available to do so. Even with the US draw down in Iraq we only shifted more to Afghanistan. Libya, Iran, and North Korea all know that for all the talk the UN/US/EU/NATO and what other alphabet soup organization may put out there. They realize since the fall of the Soviet Union many of these place have cut their military deep. Even during the 1980s as the US was going through military build up of sorts, many of her allies had started the military downgrade.

So basically if we do go into Libya, Afghanistan becomes second banana. With the reports I have seen from Afghanistan, I am beginning to wonder what it will actually take to win there. Even with the build up with NATO and more US Troops the Taliban seem to be still strong in parts of Afghanistan and Pakistan now. By all accounts they are getting stronger, not any weaker. Then their is the concern that Bin Laden and many of his supporters are still alive and active in the border region too. As long as keep taking away emphasis on hunting down Bin Laden and his group, we are allowing them to win in the eyes of the people who support them. *shrug*

getting off my soap box.

It took several years for US, UK and and allies who helped to stabilize Iraq, for what passes as stabilized government. *Shrug*

[Cdnwolf]

I love the fact that the exact same thing is happening in Bahrain and the government is using the military to crack down on protesters but you dont hear the UN complaining there And where were the Tomahawks and No Fly zone when China cracked down in Tiananmen Square

[Abbott Shaull]

I love the fact that the exact same thing is happening in Bahrain and the government is using the military to crack down on protesters but you dont hear the UN complaining there And where were the Tomahawks and No Fly zone when China cracked down in Tiananmen Square

Like I said it interesting that Central Command has assets based there so of course we turning a blind eye to it. *Shrug*

[Raellus]

For the U.S., it's damned if you do, damned if you don't. If we don't support Libya, we lose popular support in the region (public opinion in Tunisia & Egypt seems to favor the NFZ and the Arab Legue voted unanimously to support an NFZ [w/ two contries abstaining]). If we do though, we look like warmongering hypocrits to the rest of the world. I'm sure that Bin Laden is going to have a field day with this.

I get the impression that the French were pushing really hard for this no fly zone. It's good to see that they are actually doing some of the heavy lifting this time around.

If the NATO air assets target Libyan armor and artillery (and there is some indication that they have already begun to do so), it could start to swing the fighting back in favor of the rebels.

Also, I heard today on NPR that the Libyan fighter shot down yesterday (a rather dramatic pic of it going down in flames was all over the web) was a rebel plane attempting to defend Bengazi that was mistakenly shot down by the rebels.

[95th Rifleman]

I thought Bosnia proved how useless a no-fly zone really is. the buggers just painted red crosses on their transport helos and kept moving troops in to massacre the civvies.

You need boots on the ground to conduct any kind of war. Since Gulf 91 politicians have this idea that all you need is air strikes.

[Legbreaker]

I see a difference between Libya and Bahrain:
Libya is basically a civil war with the current dictator well known for his "casual" attitude towards civil rights.
Bahrain on the other hand is not a civil war. Yes, it's a rather heavy handed use of military force, but it's not a shooting war like Libya.

[Abbott Shaull]

I thought Bosnia proved how useless a no-fly zone really is. the buggers just painted red crosses on their transport helos and kept moving troops in to massacre the civvies.

You need boots on the ground to conduct any kind of war. Since Gulf 91 politicians have this idea that all you need is air strikes.

Well they did get spoiled with the success of that 6 week Air campaign didn't they...

[pmulcahy11b]

For the U.S., it's damned if you do, damned if you don't. If we don't support Libya, we lose popular support in the region (public opinion in Tunisia & Egypt seems to favor the NFZ and the Arab Legue voted unanimously to support an NFZ [w/ two contries abstaining]). If we do though, we look like warmongering hypocrits to the rest of the world. I'm sure that Bin Laden is going to have a field day with this.

The simple fact is that we have to go full on and take Kaddaffi out of power now. We need to attack his troops, and basically become the rebel's air force. If the rebels lose the war, then our actions will make us look impotent and, well, stupid.

[Abbott Shaull]

The simple fact is that we have to go full on and take Kaddaffi out of power now. We need to attack his troops, and basically become the rebel's air force. If the rebels lose the war, then our actions will make us look impotent and, well, stupid.

You are right Paul, we do have to eventually put boots on the ground if we want to show that we are backing the rebels. The main thing is where are they goign to find the force to to move over there....