US 8th ID (M) Aviation Assets

[schnickelfritz]

Please forgive if this has been discussed before, but...

AM I the only one perplexed by the aviation assets listed in the Eastern European Sourcebook for the 8th ID (M)

Any thoughts as to how you might get the helos given as belonging to the unit overland My thought is that you would knock them down as you would to get any of them into a C-130/C-141 and load them onto a large flatbed semitrailer or into a shipping container (on a semitrailer).

Any thoughts as to how they got helicopters and no one else seems to, other than it is not specifically listed that some Divisions here and there do I can imagine that there are some Corps/Army level aviation assets in Western Europe, but in a division

Any thoughts

Thanks,
Dave

[Fusilier]

Craig Sheeley was without a doubt the worst writer who ever published anything for Tw2000. I'd say if you don't like the helos being in the 8th ID, then there is your source of your problem.

Among other things in the E.Europe sourcebook, he also outfitted the Turks and Greeks armies with predominantly Soviet MBTs.

Sheeley also wrote City of Angels, which is probably the worst Tw2000 book out there. I think he was an outsourced author.

[schnickelfritz]

I'm not saying I don't want them there, I'm just looking for a reason, other than creative license, why they would be. I'm not a Craig Sheely fan, but I'd imagine the powers that be would have bought off on his work before publication. After all, that would only make sense, right

I believe all of the major US medium, light, and attack helos can be knocked down to fit in a C-130, if even only 1 at a time. To me, that means they can be transported on a semitrailer or some even in a 40' shipping container.

I was just wondering if anyone had pondered how the 8th's Helos were transported cross country and why they had them.

-Dave

[HorseSoldier]

After all, that would only make sense, right

There doesn't appear to have been much quality control to speak of after GDW rolled out the 2nd edition rules. Not sure if energies were focused elsewhere (Dark Conspiracy, Traveler upgrade, Trav2300/2300AD, etc) or if QC went downhill as the financial situation worsened for the company.

[Legbreaker]

Carried by truck. It's mentioned in there somewhere.
Note that the 8th is about the only Division that's been detailed to any significant degree. It's therefore quite possible that most other Divisions also have air assets to some extent, however aren't specifically mentioned as they're effectively dead weight without fuel and ammo. It is specifically stated the AH-64 with the 8th was an older model so ammo commonality with the Bradleys allowed it to still be of some minimal use.

As I proposed in an earlier thread on why the 8th were in the region in the first place (to capture oil shale reserves), the air assets may have been stripped from other units under the assumption that once fuel was available, they would give added effectiveness to the 8th in resisting Pact attempts to retake the resource. (A stab in the dark on my part, but hey, if the shoe fits...)

[Panther Al]

Carried by truck. It's mentioned in there somewhere.
Note that the 8th is about the only Division that's been detailed to any significant degree. It's therefore quite possible that most other Divisions also have air assets to some extent, however aren't specifically mentioned as they're effectively dead weight without fuel and ammo. It is specifically stated the AH-64 with the 8th was an older model so ammo commonality with the Bradleys allowed it to still be of some minimal use.

As I proposed in an earlier thread on why the 8th were in the region in the first place (to capture oil shale reserves), the air assets may have been stripped from other units under the assumption that once fuel was available, they would give added effectiveness to the 8th in resisting Pact attempts to retake the resource. (A stab in the dark on my part, but hey, if the shoe fits...)

You know, that makes the most sense out of all the reasons I have heard for them having those air assets. And for them being in the area in the first place. Even with a basic refining capacity, and I wouldn't be shocked there if there was a small one or two for small scale production, being able to throw air into the mix in 2000 would be like showing up at the battle of the bulge with a M1A2 company.

I think thats the reason I'll give when asked.

[LAW0306]

If they were moving them over long distance a 40 ft lowboy is the trick. one bird one truck.

[Fusilier]

I'm not saying I don't want them there, I'm just looking for a reason, other than creative license, why they would be. I'm not a Craig Sheely fan, but I'd imagine the powers that be would have bought off on his work before publication. After all, that would only make sense, right

Ahh I get'ya.

I don't have anything against aircraft either, I use em in my game afterall. I was just complaining about Sheely in general.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

There's air assets aplenty in the ME; heck there's a working USN aircraft carrier and support ships! But then even after the nukes they're sitting in the most active oil production area in the world - stuff's bound to keep flying (until the spare parts and so forth finally runs out).

I myself have an eye towards some aircraft still being in Europe on both NATO and the Warsaw Pact's side after the failed 2000 offensive. However, given how enmeshed the two sides are, neither side can be sure of what to bomb, nor where to bomb, and "calling in air support" is completely out of the question: assuming someone could get on a FAC channel to air assets, the base has no idea if the GCI is trying to lead the (rare and irreplaceable) aircraft into a flak ambush or genuinely needs air support.

Likewise, considering that there are thousands of primed and ready SA-7 and SA-14s and Stingers and Redeyes still out there, not to mention dedicated AA tracks being used as ground support neither side was willing to put aircraft over the battle until supremacy was assured. Using a pair of Su-25s to finish off stragglers in a clear route is one matter, but sending them into a total fog of war with the possibility (probability) of them never coming back was out of the question. Likewise AH64s and A10s.

A few utility helos still exist but are so deep behind their own lines that the average grunt will never hear the whup-whup of rotors; those are reserved for moving command personnel in the event of an emergency, or "critical" cargo (nuclear weapons).

I'm wandering further astray but for my T2k Europe I envision a "wing" of perhaps 3 A10s, a few (5-6) German F4s, maybe an F15 or two, a couple of C130s and 4 or 5 OV-10 Broncos. If any sort of "air support" missions are ever again tasked it'll be the Broncos that do the mission.

[Panther Al]

Sorta OT, kinda on:

One of the things I have heard here and at other places is what about ammo Will there still be some laying about, after all, in the case of the A10, not much call for it to be used for other things that might encourage large production runs. But, I stumbled across an interesting didbit:

Seems that in the A10's case so many spares, and even more so ammo, was made for the eventuality of WW3, that the Air Force is only now, after shutting off the flow of parts (mostly) and ammo (in toto) with then end of the cold war, finally running low on the stuff, particularly Ammo. Evidently they have so much of it still laying about that its almost too old to use, and in addition to buying a scad of new stuff, is sending out even more old stuff to be reworked.

So: If you are looking for a reason to still have a few A10's tucked away here and there for those high level Oh Shit moments, don't let the lack of parts and ammo deter you: Evidently they had *plenty* laying around.

[dragoon500ly]

Sorta OT, kinda on:

One of the things I have heard here and at other places is what about ammo Will there still be some laying about, after all, in the case of the A10, not much call for it to be used for other things that might encourage large production runs. But, I stumbled across an interesting didbit:

Seems that in the A10's case so many spares, and even more so ammo, was made for the eventuality of WW3, that the Air Force is only now, after shutting off the flow of parts (mostly) and ammo (in toto) with then end of the cold war, finally running low on the stuff, particularly Ammo. Evidently they have so much of it still laying about that its almost too old to use, and in addition to buying a scad of new stuff, is sending out even more old stuff to be reworked.

So: If you are looking for a reason to still have a few A10's tucked away here and there for those high level Oh Shit moments, don't let the lack of parts and ammo deter you: Evidently they had *plenty* laying around.

There was a show on the History Channel about dangerous places to fly, and they were covering Alaska and Canada....several of the airlines in that part of the world are still using the old DC-3/C-47 as both a general transport and as an airliner. What caught my eye was a section concerning spare parts, it would appear that so many spare parts were made during WWII, that the C-47s are still getting brand new, straight from the factory (okay 65 year old straight from the factory) parts. There would appear to be enough parts for another thirty years of operations........

Your tax dollars at work!

[Raellus]

Carried by truck. It's mentioned in there somewhere.
Note that the 8th is about the only Division that's been detailed to any significant degree. It's therefore quite possible that most other Divisions also have air assets to some extent, however aren't specifically mentioned as they're effectively dead weight without fuel and ammo. It is specifically stated the AH-64 with the 8th was an older model so ammo commonality with the Bradleys allowed it to still be of some minimal use.

As I proposed in an earlier thread on why the 8th were in the region in the first place (to capture oil shale reserves), the air assets may have been stripped from other units under the assumption that once fuel was available, they would give added effectiveness to the 8th in resisting Pact attempts to retake the resource. (A stab in the dark on my part, but hey, if the shoe fits...)

Also, if a small NATO naval battle group based around the Tarawa was on the Baltic (in support of 2nd MarDiv), the 8th's helo's would have a place to refuel, rearm, etc. It's a stretch for 2000, but a posibility.

[Legbreaker]

Also, if a small NATO naval battle group based around the Tarawa was on the Baltic (in support of 2nd MarDiv), the 8th's helo's would have a place to refuel, rearm, etc. It's a stretch for 2000, but a posibility.

Yet another reason to send the Tarawa to the bottom in my opinion. It's existance anywhere near anywhere useful would be hugely unbalancing to the T2K scenario as written.

Regarding the masses of ammo and parts produced for various systems, what about nukes Those depots holding all that ammo and parts would HAVE to be prime targets in my mind. Chances are that they were taken out early on (unlike IRL). And remember, a nuke is an area effect weapon - near enough is usually good enough.

[schnickelfritz]

I just can't buy sending Tarawa to the bottom...I tend to lean toward the victim being a ro/ro or somesuch, even a USN LSD or LPD.

I devote 80% of my T2K time to adventures, research, and narrative on Poland campaigns. If I find something that imbalances the narrative or is contradictory, I just hit the old "IGNORE" button, simple as that.

The beauty of this all is that it is YOUR game....to run as you see fit.

-Dave

[HorseSoldier]

I don't think anything on the capability level of the Tarawa is still operational in the Baltic for the reasons already mentioned -- its absence in Going Home and its major shift in the balance of power in the region.

(Plus the aviation sourcebook previously mentioned was ver 2.0 stuff, so I have a pretty easy time buying the 2000 date referenced to either being typo or poorly researched/thought out by the author in reference to the actual game setting.)