WP units in China

[boogiedowndonovan]

The 1st edition timeline says that in the winter of 1995, the Soviet Union solicited the other WP member states to provide units to the Far Eastern Front and by the new year Polish, Czech and East German units were headed to China. Also, Hungarian and Bulgarian units would head east after re-equipping.

The 2nd edition Soviet Vehicle guide lists one Bulgarian brigade and one Polish division in the Far East, the Polish division in Manchuria and the Bulgarian brigade leaving the front lines and headed home.

Anyone have any ideas as to what Czech, East German and Hungarian units may been sent to fight the PRC

1st edition East German units in China is an interesting thing. Would they stay loyal to the Soviets and Warsaw Pact when their comrades in East Germany revolt and subsequent West Germany and NATO intervention I could see the Soviets surpressing the news of the uprising, disarming the East German units and keeping them under guard/ using them as labor troops.

However, it would be interesting if the East Germans knew of the negotiations between East and West German military before being sent east, then at a predetermined time, the East German units defected to the China/NATO side.

[Legbreaker]

The negotiations in V1.0 were a very closely guarded secret and certainly were not known to anyone outside the room they were taking place in.
My guess for the other nations is that their forces were recalled the moment the Germans moved eastward, OR only relatively small supporting units (a few independant Battalions perhaps) had been sent - logistics, medical, etc, and therefore weren't really worth mentioning in the various books.

[Raellus]

1st edition East German units in China is an interesting thing. Would they stay loyal to the Soviets and Warsaw Pact when their comrades in East Germany revolt and subsequent West Germany and NATO intervention I could see the Soviets surpressing the news of the uprising, disarming the East German units and keeping them under guard/ using them as labor troops.

My impression is that the East Germans were none too pleased to be sent East. This led to feelers being extended to West Germany, inspiring them to launch a lightening attack aimed at reunifying the country before the Soviets could mount a coherent response.

I don't think that the East German units in China would be in any position to do much of anything but continue to fight the Red Chinese on behalf of the Soviets. I'm not sure that the Soviets would go to the trouble of disarming the Germans and using their own troops to guard/supervise them. I can see the attachment of a few more Soviet "advisors" or commissars to E. German units but that's about it.

An East German mutiny in China would be interesting, but they are just so far from home with nearly the entire USSR between them and the Fatherland that it just seems suicidal to even entertain such an idea before the later years of the war.

I've toyed with the idea of a running a campaign based around a squad of East Germans trying to make their way home some time in 2000, once things had really fallen apart pretty much everywhere. It could make for a truly epic game.

[HorseSoldier]

NATO Vehicle Guide lists two East German divisions as being rebuilt after lost/destroyed on the Chinese front. Don't have the book handy but it's mentioned in the write up for the Germans.

[Legbreaker]

It's not that unbelieveable that "politically unreliable units" may be disarmed, and interred. The Soviets have a fairly long history of doing just that (more on an individual or small group basis though).
Siberia is a great place for a Gulag...
However, it may be more effective for the more unreliable units to be assigned suicide missions (often without the commanders knowledge of the true strategic situation). Using these units as "speed bumps" to slow down a Chinese counter offensive is a good example of this.

[Webstral]

The idea of some East German units joining their Chinese comrades in the fight against Soviet communism is intriguing. Certainly, it would make for some very good press in late 1996. However, one wonders how the East Germans would have been handled on October 7. East German formations in contact with the Chinese might have been able to cross over. East German units in reserve (in the Far East) might have much less chance of escaping the warm embrace of their Soviet allies. Still, one can imagine a host of possibilities.

Webstral

[95th Rifleman]

I favour the suicide-squad theory, it makes sense and fits soviet strategy. East German units would find themselves on the frontline and worn away against the chinese.

[Rainbow Six]

I favour the suicide-squad theory, it makes sense and fits soviet strategy. East German units would find themselves on the frontline and worn away against the chinese.

I also think that's an extremely likely scenario.

Also, East German troops in China would have been reliant on Soviet controlled media for information; when the Bunderwehr crossed the Inner German Border I think that Soviet propaganda would have went into overdrive spreading the message that their fraternal socialist brothers in the NVA were herocially resisting the facist invaders, so many East German troops in China might not know the real picture of what was happening back home.

[boogiedowndonovan]

NATO Vehicle Guide lists two East German divisions as being rebuilt after lost/destroyed on the Chinese front. Don't have the book handy but it's mentioned in the write up for the Germans.

Thanks for the heads up, I didn't have the 1st edition NATO Vehicle Guide, but now have downloaded it.

The background history section of the guide does mention that the two East German divisions were overrun sometime around May 1996 due to a communications foul up during the breakout from the Shenyang pocket. Only a few hundred survivors make it back to WP lines. No mention of what happened to those few hundred survivors afterwards.

This is before the Bundeswher crosses the inter German border in October, so it throws my theory that some of the divisions officers may have had advanced notice in the trash.

In case anyone is wondering, it looks like the two East German divisions sent to China were the 9th TD and 11th MRD, reformed after the reunification as 29th PD and 211th PGD.

[Olefin]

if you read the canon and other sources it implies that there were three waves of WP units going to assist in China

Late 1995- Polish, Czech and East German divisions with Hungarian and Bulgarian divisions following once they were issued modern equipment

Late 1995 – Polish 4th MRD, East German 9th and 11th MRD have been identified. The Bulgarian 5th Tank Brigade + one battalion from the 7th Motor Rifle Division is probably the unit sent after it was issues more up to date equipment. So what were the Czech and Hungarian divisions

Early 1996 - per canon - Appalled at the losses taken in their expeditionary forces, the other Eastern European members of the Pact agreed only reluctantly to provide more troops

Figure this was after the German divisions were exterminated and implying that the Polish, Czech, Bulgarians and Hungarians took very heavy losses

Now if you go to canon again you have this

In September 1996, a third call for troops from Eastern Europe was made, to be ready for movement by mid-October whether their equipment and training were complete or not.

By November 15th, 1996 there were also two Czech divisions and four Polish divisions in Germany, their orders to leave for the Far East hurriedly rescinded.

That post gives an indication of what may have been sent to China earlier in 1996 and may also give a good reason why the Czechs and Poles didnt have the troops to really fight the invasion into Silesia as depicted in Black Madonna - i.e. a substantial amount of their forces may have already been in China and thus werent available when the NATO attack into Poland occurred.


My best guess for the Hungarian unit would be either the 4th or 8th MRD - they were both Category II units and I dont see the Hungarians sending their only tank division. They may have stiffened it with a battalion of tanks from the 1st Independent Tank Brigade as well.


So the question is - how many other units are still somewhere in Russia or were destroyed in fighting the Chinese Would the remnants of these units be the source of the separitists, warlords, etc.. in Siberia that many Russian units have been dispatched to in the Soviet Vehicle Guides (both V1 and V2)

[boogiedowndonovan]

wow this thread is back from the dead!

[Olefin]

The units sent to China offer all kinds of interesting possibilities - as has been said some of them may have been destroyed and only a few hundred survivors at best left and they may have turned to marauding.

Or they may have turned for home like the Bulgarians - staying as a cohesive unit but now having to raid for fuel and food to get them home.

Alternatively they could have become disgruntled at how they were used by the Russians and are trying to join up with NATO forces if they are close to home or with US and Korean troops in South Korea if they arent.

Be a great way to introduce some interesting characters to the game - or for new scenarios.

[Webstral]

East German POWs might have been given a new lease on life following the October 1996 West German invasion of the DDR. Certainly, when the US enters the war at the beginning of December the political situation for the East Germans would have changed. Several possibilities come to mind.

1) The Chinese hand over all Germans to NATO for possible transition into the new Bundeswehr.
2) The Chinese form a German Liberation Army to fight against Soviet forces in China.
3) The Chinese release all East German prisoners

The first option seems the most likely to me. While a small force of East German communists fighting alongside their Chinese comrades would have some good propaganda value, handing the East Germans over to NATO would be a more cost-effective means of dealing with the logistical burden of caring for the East Germans. Also, NATO would be eager to have trained German-speaking manpower to draw on. At the very least, they could be used as replacements in units formerly with the East German Army.

The Chinese probably would keep some of these guys on hand, though. While the Soviets probably would have kept East Germans off the front lines, other Warsaw Pact formations would have been available. The Chinese might very well have had a go at using East Germans to entice other WP troops to cross the line. I doubt there would have been much success, but one never knows.

Other WP units in the Far East have some interesting possibilities. There would have been POWs from all WP countries in the fighting. The Chinese would have tried bringing out as many turncoats as possible. By late 1998. some Pact units in the Far East might have been effectively on their own. What would they do then

[boogiedowndonovan]

East German POWs might have been given a new lease on life following the October 1996 West German invasion of the DDR. Certainly, when the US enters the war at the beginning of December the political situation for the East Germans would have changed. Several possibilities come to mind.

1) The Chinese hand over all Germans to NATO for possible transition into the new Bundeswehr.
2) The Chinese form a German Liberation Army to fight against Soviet forces in China.
3) The Chinese release all East German prisoners

The first option seems the most likely to me. While a small force of East German communists fighting alongside their Chinese comrades would have some good propaganda value, handing the East Germans over to NATO would be a more cost-effective means of dealing with the logistical burden of caring for the East Germans. Also, NATO would be eager to have trained German-speaking manpower to draw on. At the very least, they could be used as replacements in units formerly with the East German Army.

The Chinese probably would keep some of these guys on hand, though. While the Soviets probably would have kept East Germans off the front lines, other Warsaw Pact formations would have been available. The Chinese might very well have had a go at using East Germans to entice other WP troops to cross the line. I doubt there would have been much success, but one never knows.

Other WP units in the Far East have some interesting possibilities. There would have been POWs from all WP countries in the fighting. The Chinese would have tried bringing out as many turncoats as possible. By late 1998. some Pact units in the Far East might have been effectively on their own. What would they do then

Yeah, I recall option 1 being mentioned by the DC working group.

I personally like option 2, I think I mentioned that to you Webstral awhile back. Maybe not every single captured East German defects or volunteers to fight in China, but enough to form a combat capable unit. Whether this unit would see front line action is another question as well. I can't imagine that any East Germans captured by the Soviets will be treated well, and we can imagine what a NATO POW's treatment would be like. I would envision this unit being used for PR and mop up duties.

But I do see sense in sending all former East Germans back. There would be a need for them in Germany, especially combat veterans who have worked closely with the Soviets. But it would also make sense for some of the former East Germans with technical skills or Russian language skills to remain in the Far East.

Isn't option 3 the same as option 1

there would probably be more than a few turncoats or defectors from the Soviets and Warsaw Pact, but not on the level of the East Germans.

I dont have my books in front of me but it would be interesting to figure out what Czech and Hungarian units are in the Far East as well as what loyalties they may have.

[Webstral]

It would not surprise me at all if you put the idea in my head, bdd. I'm such a ruthless idea pirate that I don't always remember who the original source was.