Worldwide weapony post-T2K

[95th Rifleman]

The threads on American weapons post-exchange and the discussion on a german alternative to the G11 got me thinking. When you get right down to it, NATO is screwed. Most NATO nations rely on weapons that need modern industry, what would happen post-exchange for the west of the world

I'll examine Britain first as it's the nation i know most about, I welcome comments and ideas for the other NATO nations and WP nations aswell.

In 2011 the L85 is an effecive, reliable and good weapon that will see service for the forseeable future. The only problem is it took H&K to fix the damn thing back in 2000. This is not going to be happening in the twilight war.

In 1996 the L85 was rather crap, it was one of those lovely designes that worked great in "ideal" conditions but proved to be sub-standard in the field. During the first gulf war the L85 was considered next to useless by many soldiers due to it's jamming issues. It can be assumed that a few of these faults had been ironed out by 1996 in the T2K timeline (as they had been in reality) but it was still an essentilay unreliable weapon. As the H&K upgrade in 2000 can be ruled out due to the events of the twilight war it can be safely assumed that post-nuclear exchange, this weapon would dissapear rather rapidly from service.

What does that leave the British with Well the only alternative would be to fall back on the old FN-FAL variant known as the SLR L1A1 which was manufactured in Britain and it can be safely assumed that large numbers could be found in storage. But could Britain manufacture this weapon the SLR was built in Liverpool, Birmingham and the London borough of Enfield. All 3 where targets of nuclear strikes, as was almost all of the UK's industrial capability.

So what the hell could Britain do, post-exchange, to re-arma nd rebuild her armed forces I'm throwing this one out because, quite frankly, i have no bloody clue otherthan to continue to use stored weapons untill they ran out.

[Raellus]

What does that leave the British with Well the only alternative would be to fall back on the old FN-FAL variant known as the SLR L1A1 which was manufactured in Britain and it can be safely assumed that large numbers could be found in storage. But could Britain manufacture this weapon the SLR was built in Liverpool, Birmingham and the London borough of Enfield. All 3 where targets of nuclear strikes, as was almost all of the UK's industrial capability.

So what the hell could Britain do, post-exchange, to re-arma nd rebuild her armed forces I'm throwing this one out because, quite frankly, i have no bloody clue otherthan to continue to use stored weapons untill they ran out.

I can't remember where we discussed this before, but this point has been brought up a couple of times. Some folks seem to think the L85's teething troubles would have been worked out in the continued Cold War of either T2k timeline, others favor a return to the tried-and-true SLR, thousands of which were held in reserve during the '90s.

I proposed the Brits restarting production of the AR-18. The UK was liscenced to produce them from '67-'79 (IRL) so a foundation for renewed/accelerated production would would already be in place come the mid- '90s WWIII.

By all accounts, the AR-18 is a relatively simple, reliable, and accurate 5.56mm assault rifle. It could be produced in large quantities and issued to those UK troops whose L85s were kaput, or for whom the pre-existing stocks of SLRs were not available.

[95th Rifleman]

I doubt the L85 could be fixed during wartime, it took a rather comprehensive upgrade program by H&K to create the A2 model and that was done ona peacetime budget.

I've never considered the AR-18, did a bit of delving and found details on the SAR-87 (the British variant). It seems the program was shut down in the 80's but I admit the idea of restarting it seems interesting. Apparently the SAR-87 could be converted to 9mm to be used as an SMG so it has the benefit of being able to have a dual purpose.

[Targan]

I agree that the L85 probably couldn't be fixed to the RL A2 standard during the Twilight War but in a number of previous discussions there has been a general consensus that the continuation of the Cold War in the 1990s (in the T2K) universe would have accelerated weapons and other military equipment development by up to five years. Accepting that hypothesis the L85's issues might well have been squared away in time for the Twilight War.

Having said that I very much support the idea of the AR-18 being put into production during the later part of the Twilight War in both the US and the UK. It makes sense. I also think that the UK (and Australia and New Zealand) would quite happily open up their stores of SLRs and issue them to support and late-war formations (this is both a considered opinion and an emotional response on my part as I hold a deep and abiding love for the SLR, its the only military weapon I feel completely confident about maintaining and firing).

[Raellus]

I doubt the L85 could be fixed during wartime, it took a rather comprehensive upgrade program by H&K to create the A2 model and that was done ona peacetime budget.

I agree. The theory put forth by others was that the problems would have been identified (and acknowledged) in the early '90s (in the T2K timeline), and, with the [continued] Cold War motivator of the Red Army in East Germany, a fix would be diligently and speedily applied from that point on until the TDM or thereabouts.

I'm not sure I buy that. As I understand it, the problems weren't really addressed (or faced up to) until Afghanistan c.2001. If that's truly the case, then why would it be identified and a fix implemented in the early '90s in the T2K timeline

If my facts are crossed and it was Desert Storm in '91 that shined a spotlight on the L85's issues, then that's a different matter. Personally, I prefer a v1.0 timeline where the First Gulf War never happened. That begs the question whether the problems with the L85 would have been i.d.'ed/addressed before '97.

Either way, I like the idea of the UK manufacturing the AR-18 for at least some of its troops.

[simonmark6]

The Stirling Arms Factory is in Dagenham which is just south of London. Given the area's heavy industry I would imagine that it was very heavily damaged by London's nukes even if one wasn't used on the area itself.

Short term it is possibly necessary to examine what missions the UK Land Forces will be expected to perform. In my opinion, UKLF is going to be spending a lot of time reintegrating independent areas into what GDW called "England". I would think that the existing forces would be already armed in a way that could achieve the first step of this: taking territory.

Most of the independent areas of the UK have little more than small arms of various types and maybe a few mortars and AT weapons. The UKLF can muster a decent (for the time) number of tanks and artillery pieces. Most towns, in my opinion, are likely to just surrender rather than face destruction by heavy fire that they can't really oppose.

Some areas will be more difficult, Cornwall for example where the organisation of the enemy forces and the terrain makes armoured warfare less than optimal would be a problem and the UKLF would need to martial their forces carefully in order not to lose too much irreplacable materiel.

This leads to the second part of reintegrating the country:holding territory. This is much more difficult than using overwhelming firepower to take territory and needs boots on the ground. Most of the time however the occupation troops would be facing lightly armed guerrilla style forces and whilst modern firearms would be nice, they aren't totally necessary.

Given this scenario I'd imagine a two (maybe more) tier system with a core of trained veterans being given any modern weapons that could be maintained, SA80s and any stockpiles of SLRs. These troops would be the spear point and rapid reaction firebrigades backed up with the force's remaining tanks and artillery. The second tier would be a more paramilitary style occupying force which could be armed with civilian weapons and anything that could be manufactured in workshops, probably a version of the STEN gun (probably with all the problems that were originally associated with it). For support these light units might have small mortars or the odd workshop made bazooka style weapon.

By marshalling stocks in this way, surviving stocks of military style weapons would maybe last long enough for a manufacturing base to be re-established in a more unified England.

Eventually, once industry becomes more than just a couple of guys in a shed, I think that the AR-18 might be a viable weapon for the UKLF next generation rebuild but I don't see them being made in significant quantities until after the pacification of the country. Whether that includes the newly formed nations of Scotland and Wales is the topic for another thread.

[95th Rifleman]

If we assume the V1.0 timeline then there is really no chance for the L85 upgrade. The first (A1) upgrade program came as a direct result of the 1st Gulf War. If that conflict had not been fought then there would be no reason to upgrade the L85 (it's problems where never really highlighted till they where taken into proper wartime conditions), the same would go for the Challenger MBT.

If we assue the (imho flawed) V2.0 timeline then the L85A1 would of been introduced but it's very unlikely that the A2 upgrade would be carried out in wartime conditions. the A2 program involved sending around two hundred thousand L85s to the factory for what was essentialy an internal rebuild.

The SLR was arguably the best firearm ever issued to the British army, I don't think i've ever heard a bad thing about it. however when you consider the vast amount of 5.56 ammo in the Uk and in NATO militaries it seems doubtful that any post-exchange choice of longterm weapon would be in any other calibre.

However the problem with the SAR-87 (British AR-18) is that the company which produced it went out of business in the 80's. By the year 2000, post-exchange, would all the required plans and such even exist The Americans have their hands full so it's not very likely they would even consider helping the UK. It can be safely assumed that America (both mil' and civ' governments) would be adopting an "america-first" isolationist policy as they rebuild.

[James Langham]

If we assume the V1.0 timeline then there is really no chance for the L85 upgrade. The first (A1) upgrade program came as a direct result of the 1st Gulf War. If that conflict had not been fought then there would be no reason to upgrade the L85 (it's problems where never really highlighted till they where taken into proper wartime conditions), the same would go for the Challenger MBT.

If we assue the (imho flawed) V2.0 timeline then the L85A1 would of been introduced but it's very unlikely that the A2 upgrade would be carried out in wartime conditions. the A2 program involved sending around two hundred thousand L85s to the factory for what was essentialy an internal rebuild.

The SLR was arguably the best firearm ever issued to the British army, I don't think i've ever heard a bad thing about it. however when you consider the vast amount of 5.56 ammo in the Uk and in NATO militaries it seems doubtful that any post-exchange choice of longterm weapon would be in any other calibre.

However the problem with the SAR-87 (British AR-18) is that the company which produced it went out of business in the 80's. By the year 2000, post-exchange, would all the required plans and such even exist The Americans have their hands full so it's not very likely they would even consider helping the UK. It can be safely assumed that America (both mil' and civ' governments) would be adopting an "america-first" isolationist policy as they rebuild.

I do like the idea of issuing the AR18 in the UK but think a more likely option is the issue of some of the 10,000 M16s we purchased (even before we bought M16A2s and C7s). My guess is that we would do as the latest commercial models do and adopt the STANAG magazine.

Possibly in service it could be the Rifle L18 with the AR18S becoming the Carbine L19

I can also see the HSF (Home Service Force) being issued with No4 rifles (Lee Enfield .303s) from storage (they had not long been withdrawn from the cadet forces). These could be issued AKs when enough are captured.

[Rainbow Six]

A few thoughts...

Even in a V1 timeline without the Gulf War, it was known that the A1 version had a number of flaws, so I'm one of those who think that some sort of L85A2 might start to appear in limited numbers from 1995 onwards (note I'm not suggesting it would be the same as the A2 version in current service).

In my T2K World the catalyst for the upgrade is the outbreak of the Sino Soviet War, which prompts the review that IRL happened after the 1991 Gulf War. This review is conducted as a matter of urgency, and starting sometime in 1996 Royal Ordnance begin manufacturing the A2 model, which immediately start going to front line troops (primarily the Infantry Battalions of the Regular Army). Production of the A2 continues up until the 1997 nuclear exchanges, although priority continues to go to combat units in Europe, so the A2 model is rare in the United Kingdom, being only found in the hands of a small number of Regular Army units.

Still in my T2K World, the A1 model is more common in the UK, being used by Territorial Infantry Battalions serving in a home defence role, however it has been widely supplemented by SLR's and Sterlings, which have been brought out of "storage" and issued on a relatively large scale, particularly to support units (R Signals, Royal Logistics Corps) and RAF and Royal Navy units who have been pressed into service as infantry. I also envisage a number of SLR's and Sterlings being issued to Civilian police during the third quarter of 1997. I also like the idea of the Bren gun being reissued as a support weapon.

There are various issues with production of the AR18 – as Simonmark6 has mentioned the factory where they were manufactured is in an area that is likely to suffer heavy damage in the nuclear exchange (if not from conventional attack beforehand) but perhaps the bigger issue is that IRL Sterling Armaments went bankrupt in 1988 as 95th Rifleman has pointed out. That said, if you want to introduce increased numbers of AR18's into the UK I don't think that these problems are unresolvable; one could argue that in a World where the Cold War continues, a buyer might have been found to rescue the company from bankruptcy, so it's not unreasonable to assume that production could have continued up to the nuclear exchange (at least).

Post exchange, I think the points put forward by Simonmark6 are spot on; given the relatively low numbers of weapons in private ownership, HMG's forces should be more than capable of outgunning most unlawful groups. With regards to holding reintegrated territory, I agree this would be a far greater challenge than taking the territory in the first place. I think here we could expect to see militia forces being raised, made up of locally recruited volunteers, and quite possibly armed primarily with melee weapons, supplemented by a limited number of firearms (don't laugh, but for those familiar with the programme the analogy that springs to mind here are the very early episodes of Dad's Army, when Captain Mainwaring "appropriates" the one firearm the Home Guard platoon has for himself).

[Rainbow Six]

If we assume the V1.0 timeline then there is really no chance for the L85 upgrade. The first (A1) upgrade program came as a direct result of the 1st Gulf War. If that conflict had not been fought then there would be no reason to upgrade the L85 (it's problems where never really highlighted till they where taken into proper wartime conditions), the same would go for the Challenger MBT.

There would definitely still have been a Challenger 2; whilst it didn't enter service until the 1990's, the origins of the programme go back to the second half of the 1980's, so it would have gone ahead regardless of whether the 1991 Gulf War had taken place or not.

[Rainbow Six]

Moving away from the UK specifiically and addressing the Worldwide part of the thread, I think it's been discussed before that the Franco Belgian Union would be in control of the FN facility at Liege, so might be in a position to supply some weapons to its allies (e.g. Quebec).

[James Langham]

There would definitely still have been a Challenger 2; whilst it didn't enter service until the 1990's, the origins of the programme go back to the second half of the 1980's, so it would have gone ahead regardless of whether the 1991 Gulf War had taken place or not.

There will also be upgraded Cheiftains with the CHARM upgrades.

[James Langham]

Moving away from the UK specifiically and addressing the Worldwide part of the thread, I think it's been discussed before that the Franco Belgian Union would be in control of the FN facility at Liege, so might be in a position to supply some weapons to its allies (e.g. Quebec).

If it hasn't been nuked...

I would suggest a more likely approach is a covert supply of captured weapons.

[James Langham]

A few thoughts...

Even in a V1 timeline without the Gulf War, it was known that the A1 version had a number of flaws, so I"m one of those who think that some sort of L85A2 might start to appear in limited numbers from 1995 onwards (note I"m not suggesting it would be the same as the A2 version in current service).

In my T2K World the catalyst for the upgrade is the outbreak of the Sino Soviet War, which prompts the review that IRL happened after the 1991 Gulf War. This review is conducted as a matter of urgency, and starting sometime in 1996 Royal Ordnance begin manufacturing the A2 model, which immediately start going to front line troops (primarily the Infantry Battalions of the Regular Army). Production of the A2 continues up until the 1997 nuclear exchanges, although priority continues to go to combat units in Europe, so the A2 model is rare in the United Kingdom, being only found in the hands of a small number of Regular Army units.

Still in my T2K World, the A1 model is more common in the UK, being used by Territorial Infantry Battalions serving in a home defence role, however it has been widely supplemented by SLR"s and Sterlings, which have been brought out of storage and issued on a relatively large scale, particularly to support units (R Signals, Royal Logistics Corps) and RAF and Royal Navy units who have been pressed into service as infantry. I also envisage a number of SLR"s and Sterlings being issued to Civilian police during the third quarter of 1997. I also like the idea of the Bren gun being reissued as a support weapon.

There are various issues with production of the AR18 oe as Simonmark6 has mentioned the factory where they were manufactured is in an area that is likely to suffer heavy damage in the nuclear exchange (if not from conventional attack beforehand) but perhaps the bigger issue is that IRL Sterling Armaments went bankrupt in 1988 as 95th Rifleman has pointed out. That said, if you want to introduce increased numbers of AR18"s into the UK I don't think that these problems are unresolvable; one could argue that in a World where the Cold War continues, a buyer might have been found to rescue the company from bankruptcy, so it"s not unreasonable to assume that production could have continued up to the nuclear exchange (at least).

Post exchange, I think the points put forward by Simonmark6 are spot on; given the relatively low numbers of weapons in private ownership, HMG"s forces should be more than capable of outgunning most unlawful groups. With regards to holding reintegrated territory, I agree this would be a far greater challenge than taking the territory in the first place. I think here we could expect to see militia forces being raised, made up of locally recruited volunteers, and quite possibly armed primarily with melee weapons, supplemented by a limited number of firearms (don"t laugh, but for those familiar with the programme the analogy that springs to mind here are the very early episodes of Dad"s Army, when Captain Mainwaring appropriates the one firearm the Home Guard platoon has for himself).

Plenty of L4 Brens around, I have a photo of the Royal Scots Dragoon Guards Battlegroup in the Gulf War with them and they were still in service in 1992/93 at leadt with the cadet forces in the UK.

A cheap and cheerful SMG (based on the Sterling but simplified) adds a lot of authority combined with a relatively easy manufacturing process. Lack of range is less of a problem as the UK is relatively weapon rare as has been noted.

[Rainbow Six]

If it hasn't been nuked...

I would suggest a more likely approach is a covert supply of captured weapons.

True on both points...V2 NATO Vehicle Guide has Liege occupied by 1st Belgian Infantry Division, but that doesn't definitively confirm one way or the other whether it was nuked or not.

Re: your second point, in my T2K World I have the Duke of Cornwall receiving captured German weapons from a French arms dealer.