Tracked vehicle attrition

[dragoon500ly]

When the M1 first came out, we had mostly rubber chevron tracks (1980s), life span in Europe was roughly 2,500 kilometers before replacement.

By the time of Desert Storm, the M1 had switched to mostly metal with rubber replacement pads. Estimated track life for the metal portion was 4,000 kilometers with the replacement pads having to be replaced roughly every 1,800 kilometers.

After the Merkava was introduced, an Israeli colonel on exchange duties claimed that the track was good for 5,000 kilometers. I would take that figure with a large bag of salt as the Israelis are famous for being "tight" with reliable info!

Now the figures I quoted are for European service! In rough, rocky terrain, track life is roughly halved.

[Mohoender]

Not so sure about that, the UAE uses the Leclerc and they don't seem to have too much in the way of enviromental issues.

Actually the Leclerc sold to the UAE are quite different from the French ones. Still, conditions in Lebanon are in no way conditions in UAE.

Stainlesscynic has a point and I should have recall that the German had tracks problem in USSR and not only in winter.

That must make things even more complicated as the need for mechanical replacements are more common on tracked vehicles than on wheeled ones. As someone said, with time most tanks will be turned into pillboxes.

[Mohoender]

Now the figures I quoted are for European service! In rough, rocky terrain, track life is roughly halved.

Really interresting figures. Then, IMO it will effectively render tracked vehicles in T2K useless outside of the local level where a commander can gather sufficient technical supports. I'm thinking that because the lack of available spare parts will make necessary to maintain some type of repair shop.

Could be interesting to look at the haganah in 1948 or at what has happened in Africa over the years. With time, I would expect to find a larger number of hybrid vehicles in the ranks of most armies.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Not so sure about that, the UAE uses the Leclerc and they don't seem to have too much in the way of enviromental issues.

Interesting, I'd wager that the UAE doesn't have as much hard ground surface as Lebanon though

When the M1 first came out, we had mostly rubber chevron tracks (1980s), life span in Europe was roughly 2,500 kilometers before replacement.

By the time of Desert Storm, the M1 had switched to mostly metal with rubber replacement pads. Estimated track life for the metal portion was 4,000 kilometers with the replacement pads having to be replaced roughly every 1,800 kilometers.

After the Merkava was introduced, an Israeli colonel on exchange duties claimed that the track was good for 5,000 kilometers. I would take that figure with a large bag of salt as the Israelis are famous for being "tight" with reliable info!

Now the figures I quoted are for European service! In rough, rocky terrain, track life is roughly halved.

That was kind of my train of thought, the harder rocky terrain of Lebanon would probably chew through the tracks much quicker than if they were running on soil or sand.
As a point of interest, the Merkava originally made use of the tracks from the Centurion and I believe that later track types evolved along with the tank itself.
Not too surprising as the prototype for the Merkava was little more than a Centurion with the turret placed to the hull front and the whole vehicle turned around so that the engine was now the front!


Merkava prototype, Yad la-Shiryon Museum, Latrun, Israel

[Panther Al]

Track service life on the Merkava is a good bit longer than most other tracks in the west due to the fact that our track was designed with the idea that it would spend enough time on pavement that the rubber pads are needed to avoid destroying the roads upon which they run on. Now in Europe, this isn't a bad point- the road net is so huge that its actually pretty reasonable that a tank would spend more than half its time on some sort of pavement. Now the Merkava's tracks (And soviet style ones as well to a point) are designed to spend all its life running over rocks: All steel. A lot more durable than the soviet all steel tracks, but they both are designed to take massive amounts of abuse compared to the "softer" rubber padded tracks we use. The doesn side to all steel is that as mentioned, they destroy roads. Also, the ride of the tracks are a lot rougher. But when the ground you are crossing is already rough, it really isn't noticeable.


In regards to the points Dragoon500ly made, he is right: Deciding tomorrow to reengine a tank is far from easy: in the case I mentioned, MTU already did all the work and engineering to make it possible with relatively little pain. Diesel engines have some a long way in the almost 40 years the M1 has been bouncing around (including prototype stage).

[dragoon500ly]

Don't forget, when we discuss replacing the M-1s turbine, in the twilight war time frame, there is no diesel engine capable of doing the job as well as the turbine.

So breaking the pack apart and slapping the trannie onto a diesel and then rigging it to fit isn't even an option, IMO.

Any diesel engine was still in the test stand stage, virtually hand made and almost totally lacking in spare parts.

Came across this little tidbit in a M-60 maintenance manual...the T142 track (replaceable rubber pads) can also be used without the pads, the requirement was that this was only to be considered when the vehicle was to be used solely cross-country.

[Olefin]

Saw this old thread - keep in mind guys that the M1 engine will do just fine a large variety of fuels.

My boss was an M1 commander in the Gulf War and as a reservist drove them again in 2003-2004 - and as he said you can keep it going on just about anything

it will run very well on any aviation gas, jet fuel (various types), gasoline ranging down to as little as 70 octane, diesel, even bio fuels and cooking oils

you have to clean out the filters more but it will work

the tracks are a different story - but keep in mind that Europe by now would be literally littered with dead M1's that they can salvage tracks and track shoes from - and with the reduced operational tempos they may be fine for years

the people who will have problems will be guys like me (I rolled an M1A1 tank) who take them cross country all over Poland - found track shoes and parts in Krakow (where else after all would have them) but cost a lot

[kcdusk]

Reading all through this thread, I'm thinking:

1. could an average soldier replace treads Would he have the tools & technical know-how Could an average soldier even drive a tank

2. we keep forgetting most of the T2K combatants are likely to be civilians. Some will be ya-hoos thinking they can claim abandoned army gear, riding around in army vehicles they can drive (jeeps, humvees, i wouldnt imagine a civvy could work out anything more ... even "simple" ATVs like a couger or Grizzly). Most civilians will stick to what they know, maybe a .22 rifle. But who's going to try and start a tank Point being even if a brand new tank was available or spares in abundance, i dont think civvys (or normal soldiers) would have the tools or technical knowhow to do the job.

[Sanjuro]

When I first read Olefin's

(I rolled an M1A1 tank)

I thought, AWESOME! Then I read the post properly and was a little disappointed, but thanks for the image anyway...

[Targan]

Reading all through this thread, I'm thinking:

1. could an average soldier replace treads Would he have the tools & technical know-how Could an average soldier even drive a tank

2. we keep forgetting most of the T2K combatants are likely to be civilians. Some will be ya-hoos thinking they can claim abandoned army gear, riding around in army vehicles they can drive (jeeps, humvees, i wouldnt imagine a civvy could work out anything more ... even "simple" ATVs like a couger or Grizzly). Most civilians will stick to what they know, maybe a .22 rifle. But who's going to try and start a tank Point being even if a brand new tank was available or spares in abundance, i dont think civvys (or normal soldiers) would have the tools or technical knowhow to do the job.

Good points. You only need to find one guy with the right knowledge though, and he can train others. A lack of tools would be a major problem, I agree.

[Adm.Lee]

I agree with the above, if one is speaking of civilians finding an abandoned tank in the woods. But a military unit's got to have contact with at least one oother unit with still-kicking treadheads and their mechanics, and they've likely got a building full of whatever they could strip off of their own derelicts.

[Olefin]

the M1 tank is very easy to drive - take it from me (or you can watch the BBC and see it for yourself)

replacing treads is a different issue - but with the right TM and at least one guy who is trained how to do it and who can teach it can be done

oh and I havent rolled an M1 tank personally - but I have seen the results of it being done (saw a briefing a year ago about how an M1 in Iraq got retrieved after it flipped off a bridge because of a driver who was going way too fast - took two M88A2's to get her out of the river)

[Webstral]

If memory serves, them Iraqi rivers are all yummy.

[kiltedguard]

1. could an average soldier replace treads Would he have the tools & technical know-how Could an average soldier even drive a tank

2. we keep forgetting most of the T2K combatants are likely to be civilians. Some will be ya-hoos thinking they can claim abandoned army gear, riding around in army vehicles they can drive (jeeps, humvees, i wouldnt imagine a civvy could work out anything more ... even "simple" ATVs like a couger or Grizzly). Most civilians will stick to what they know, maybe a .22 rifle. But who's going to try and start a tank Point being even if a brand new tank was available or spares in abundance, i dont think civvys (or normal soldiers) would have the tools or technical knowhow to do the job.

Yes and no. The average person, once they figured out how to start it...could learn to drive it in very short order. Replacing track pads is a fairly easy task that can be accomplished with a socket wretch, gun oil and a standard screwdriver.

On the other hand, popping the link-pin out of a set of tracks is what we like to refer to as "Breaking Track", and is universally accepted to be on of the most horrific experiences the first time you have to do it. (And only mildly better subsequent times.) The sheer weight of each track section makes a repair like that EXCEPTIONALLY DIFFICULT (I won't say impossible) to do alone. It requires tools to maintain track tension...and well...it's not fun with a whole crew. Yer looking at a timeframe of about 4-6 hours to do that in the field with field tools. The mechanics at the support BN could probably bang it out in about a hour or two change using their equipment and their experience doing it fairly often.

[Olefin]

Nice to see someone who has actually done it - seen it myself here at the plant in York.

And you are right about how much fun it would be in the field - it can be done - but it would be a lot easier if you had an M88 along for the ride with your M1 or Bradley when the time came.