War crimes and criminals

[95th Rifleman]

The recent arrest of Ratko Mladic and the assassination of Bin laden have got me thinking. War is hell and every side is guilty of war crimes, it would be unavoidable in a war the scale of the twilight conflict. It can be even argued that using WMDs like nuclear weapons is in itself a crime.

Ok, fast forward to post exchange, things are starting to get organised, countries have moved from the "oh shit, oh shit, oh shit" stage and have established industry and legitimacy. Would there be an interest in hunting down war criminals/ If so, who would do it and why? Would it be purely political, for the pursuit of justice or motivated by vengeance?

I'm always looking for new angles to base T2K games and this strikes me as an interesting one, setting up a game where the PCs are hunting a known war criminal.

[Legbreaker]

I'm always looking for new angles to base T2K games and this strikes me as an interesting one, setting up a game where the PCs are hunting a known war criminal.

Or the hunted.....

Yes, given a few years (minimum) of recovery, there would be some effort made to find and punish war criminals. However, it's likely to be a lot harder than post WWII due to the extreme level of destruction.

Overal, this sounds like a good Merc concept.

[Targan]

I'll have to email the player of Major Po and get him to contribute to this thread. His character was an expert in the application of war crimes. Even more than just being a hobby, almost a semi-professional war criminal

Comes to think of it General Pain would have extensive experience in this area too.

[Raellus]

Yes, given a few years (minimum) of recovery, there would be some effort made to find and punish war criminals. However, it's likely to be a lot harder than post WWII due to the extreme level of destruction.

Maybe not. Some countries have decided that pursuing and prosecuting war criminals will only lead to more instability and increase the potential for renewed bloodshed. Liberia, is the example that springs to mind. Certain murderous commanders on all sides of the '90s and early '00s conflict where pretty much granted amnesty. It's not uncommon for a former fighter/rapist to be recognized by one of his victims on the street.

After the widespread breakdown of central authority/civilization in Europe during the Twilight War, the line between legitimate combatant and war criminal would be rather blurred. As many have pointed out, one man's marauder is another man's freedom fighter. Just look at the pro-Mladic riots that have occured in Serbia since the arrest and deportation of a man most Europeans consider a war criminal (for the record, so do I). This is 15 years after a regional war. The Twilight War would dwarf the Yugoslav wars in scope, scale, and brutality. Identifying and labelling war criminals after such a war could rouse a lot of demons that many people might just want to forget completely about. I think the last thing many European nations would want to do is reopen old wounds or fracture tenuous political alliances. I'm not sure going after war criminals would be such a good idea for a continent just emerging from amounted to a second feudal period. There's no Marshall Plan on the way either to help stabilize things. In the interest of national reconciliation, pardons or blanket amnesties might be the norm. I think only the most notorious, violent, equal opportunity marauder captains would be fair game for labelling and prosecution as "war criminals". Some local commander who might have gotten overzealous on an anti-marauder sweep would likely be forgiven if he seemed contrite enough. Some partisan leader or feudal militia captain who killed captured gov. troops would likely get a pass as well. This might seem really cynical, but I'm just not sure Europeans 10-25 years after the TW would be invested in war crimes prosecutions. Hell, I bet a lot of survivors who fought in some army, militia, warband, etc. would have some moments that they wouldn't be proud to recount in public.

Politically speaking, who are the bad guys that need to be punished? There are no Nazi aggressors. Is the German military taken to task? How about the Soviets or the Americans? Didn't they both unleash weapons of mass destruction all across Europe and other parts of the world? What about the company commander that ordered a village wiped out for aiding and abedding enemy forces? Where do you start and where do you end. The scale of the crimes against humanity in the TW is truly massive. I'm not sure how much documentation would have been kept/survived the nuclear exchanges and the breakdown of civilization that followed. For that matter, how many eye-witnesses to attrocities would have survived and/or be willing to come forward?

I think a lot of people would jbe willing to say "let's try to forget about what happened and just move forward".

[Targan]

Its rare, after a war, for soldiers on the winning side to be tried for war crimes. Just sayin'.

[Legbreaker]

The problem with T2K compared to other wars is that there is no winner writing the history. All sides involved will have scores to settle in the years afterward.
As for living and letting live, even today there are nazi hunters seeking out and bringing to trial WWII war criminals, even though the vast majority would have to have died of old age by now.

The efforts to catch, try and punish war criminals may not be made by the international community as a whole, but it will happen. It could be carried out by a coallition of countries, a single country, an organisation or even individuals. As long as somebody can remember being wronged, retribution will be sought.

[Raellus]

Its rare, after a war, for soldiers on the winning side to be tried for war crimes. Just sayin'.

Exactly. I was going to come back and make this point but you beat me to it.

In the TW, there's really no clear-cut winner or loser. Usually, the winners dictate the terms, decide what war crimes are, and determine who should be prosecuted as such.

How are Poles going to get their hands on German, or Soviet/Russian, or American "war criminals"? They're not. I don't see any scenarios where exchanges/extraditions would be made. Each country pretty much looks after its own. I can see local attempts made to prosecute "local", native war criminals but I don't see any Nuremberg Trials or Hague tribunals after the Twilight War.

[Legbreaker]

So how is it that the Israeli's have managed to get their hands on some many over the decades?
It may not be easy, or guilt even all that clear cut, but there will still be somebody doing the chasing.

[Targan]

So how is it that the Israeli's have managed to get their hands on some many over the decades?

That's easy. In many cases they ignore international law and the laws of other countries and just do as they like.

Before anyone gets on their high horse I'm no anti-semite. I'm highly critical of the policies of the Israeli government but I have absolutely no issue with the Jewish people.

[Raellus]

So how is it that the Israeli's have managed to get their hands on some many over the decades?
It may not be easy, or guilt even all that clear cut, but there will still be somebody doing the chasing.

That's a good point. There might be small-scale prosecutions, post-TW. But it's not quite the same thing. What's Argentina going to do if a couple of Mossad agents kidnap a former Nazi living incognito in Buenos Aires? They can complain, but that's about it. Is Germany going to complain? Not likely.

Now imagine what would happen if some post-TW Poles somehow captured a Russian or German living in his home country? The repercussions could be severe. I'm not sure the risks would be worth it. Such actions would likely increase tension and could lead to renewed hostilities. Preserving peace and stability might trump pursuing/punishing war criminals.

Perhaps the countries of Europe would get together and work something out but, really, when has that sort of thing ever worked (well)?

[Legbreaker]

Repercussions be damned - at least that's the way many people may be thinking. Just look at how many loonies there are out there in everyday society protesting against this or that and happy to be arrested for it. Look at the people who like to disrupt WTO meetings for example - their actions may have servious impact on global relations, but that doesn't stop them from being a pain in the posterior.
While ever there are people who believe somebody has been or is being wronged, there will be people willing to do whatever it takes, rightly or wrongly and damn the political fallout!

[Raellus]

Yeah, but look at how reluctant everyone in Europe was to stand up to Hitler until '39. Why? No one wanted another world war. Appeasement was the product of war weariness resulting from the human, material, and financial costs of the "Great War". It traumatized the hell out of Europe and no one wanted to rock the boat for two decades after it ended. Imagine how traumatized people/nations would be by the Twilight War/WWIII.

Yes, there are individual citizens and small groups of radicals who just won't give a toss about that sort of thing. They might take matters into their own hands and you may see some vigilantism (or terrorism) related to wreaking vengeance on war criminals. But I really don't think you'd see governments pursuing war crimes prosecutions with much fervor.

[Legbreaker]

It really depends on which way the political wind is blowing and who's going to gain the most out of it. France for example may be willing to pursue some who came into contact with their citizens either on the Rhine, or when somebody was caught nosing about where they shouldn't have been - who's going to want to argue with what is the post WWWIII superpower?

Twenty five years later the political landscape may be completely different with a big general push to find any potential criminals. It may even be the government of the day bringing their own citizens to trial if it's in their political interests.

[Targan]

T:2300 shows that, like WWI, the Twilight War completely failed to be The War to End All Wars. Admittedly large-scale hostilities between the major powers fizzled out after 2001 (and I don't have the 2300 books here at work with me to check) but there were some really nasty regional wars in the century after the Twilight War ended. I recall that South America had its own really vicious series of wars.

And then things really kicked off all over again once the Stutterwarp faster-than-light drive was invented - a rare element called tantalum was a key requirement of the Stutterwarp drive and many countries went to war over the very finite deposits on earth. In the medium term those countries which had access to tantalum became major space faring powers while those without had to either ally themselves to those that did or resign themselves to being terrestrial nobodies (I say medium term because in the longer term terrestrial tantalum deposits became irrelevent in the face of the vast resources available in space).

In the CONUS MilGov and CivGov finally reunited in 2020. I suspect they would not have sought to prosecute one another's war criminals, in the spirit of detente and reconciliation (and political expediency of course). I'm sure however that any New America notables in custody would have been mercilessly punished.

[Mohoender]

IMO, after the Twilight war nobody would be prosecuted for war crimes as there is no winning side and as it would be more than complicated to find clear charges. Moreover, how could you charge your former ennemy for war crimes when you commited exactly the same crime? The use of nukes to the level of T2K is a war crime in itself. I would love to see the result of a war crime case where a government (which had dropped several Mt of nukes on others) would accuse one of, for exemple, privateeering or piracy.

Recall the case of the Admiral Donitz which was not found guilty because of his decision concerning submarine warfare as the USA had conducted the same kind of dirty war with their own submarines.

However, I would think that people could be charged with "crime against humanity" as Ratko Mladic is. Mass murder of civilians is a much better case. I can perfectly see a renewed US governement prosecuting former members of New America as it will add to their legitimacy. It will also be needed to avoid further chaos as you'll find criminal hunters such as Simon Wiesenthal. If they can't bring these people to court, this will quickly turn to bloodshed and cold revenge.