OT: China's new carrier

[Targan]

Wars are won by powers that have the right combination of wealth, technology, and manpower.

And, often, ruthlessness.

[pmulcahy11b]

I don't think that China poses a military threat to most of the countries in the world right now. Maybe in 10-15 years when oil supplies have gotten a lot shorter, it will get "interesting." But right now, the biggest threat from China is economic. They are constantly manipulating the worth of the yuan (I think that's the name of their currency), giving it an artificially high or low value depending upon what's better for them at the moment. They undermine countries' economies by selling them cheap goods and keeping their manufacturing costs artificially low so that factories in the receiving countries close or have high operating costs and correspondingly high prices for their goods.

[RN7]

Cultural bias does not equal wars of aggression or any of the crimes of which Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan were guilty. Don't get me wrong: the Chinese ain't fluffy bunnies. They are hard people with an agenda. Nonetheless, it's useful to understand where they are coming from in interpreting their actions.

Tibet, Xinjiang!

I'm guilty of not giving sufficient context to my quoted material. This passage describes the situation in the 1800's, when Europeans started making serious inroads into China's economy. I used it in a current context because the Chinese remember their history. One could argue that the economic explosion in China is a direct result of the hard lessons learned by China at the hands of the West. Wars are won by powers that have the right combination of wealth, technology, and manpower. China is determined not to be victimized again, and China wants her place in the sun.

The funny thing about Chinese perception of aggression from the West is that the nations that have historicaly harmed them the worst were other Asian people, ie the Japanese and the Mongols. America who has been the greatest of all Western powers for some time has in fact been China's greatest ally.

[Targan]

The funny thing about Chinese perception of aggression from the West is that the nations that have historicaly harmed them the worst were other Asian people, ie the Japanese and the Mongols. America who has been the greatest of all Western powers for some time has in fact been China's greatest ally.

I guess. But more recently than the Japanese or Mongols have fought China, we had that iddy biddy disagreement we call the Korean War, and that never actually ended. I know that didn't involve western troops on Chinese soil but the Chinese clearly regard North Korea as being vital as a buffer-state.

[RN7]

I don't think that China poses a military threat to most of the countries in the world right now. Maybe in 10-15 years when oil supplies have gotten a lot shorter, it will get "interesting." But right now, the biggest threat from China is economic. They are constantly manipulating the worth of the yuan (I think that's the name of their currency), giving it an artificially high or low value depending upon what's better for them at the moment. They undermine countries' economies by selling them cheap goods and keeping their manufacturing costs artificially low so that factories in the receiving countries close or have high operating costs and correspondingly high prices for their goods.

Absolutely the Chinese government is totally manipulating market forces to its own advantage, and its eroding America's manufacturing base and putting Americans out of work. Many economists also believe that China is cooking its books as regards to keeping up the international impression that its economy is booming when the reality is far different.

Until recently Chinese economic expansion was dependent on cheap exports to America. But with the global recession the Chinese government decided to switch its focus to developing a consumer based economy even though China is not a consumer based economy in the sense found in the developed world due to its very low standard of living. A massive build up of infrastructure and housing development, skyscrapers, shopping malls etc but most Chinese cant afford to live or shop in them. It has however kept Chinese factory orders running artificialy very high which gives the impression that their economy is expanding at a higher rate than it actually is. Something has to give as even a centraly planned economy such as China cant hide and keep this up given China's current massive exposure to the international economic system.

I suspect that China is bracing itself for the next US presidential race as the economy is going to be by far the biggest issue. I'd say that China is hoping that Obama will remain president as he seem reluctant to tackle this problem. A new president would cause real problems for China if tarrifs or taxes were imposed on Chinese imports to America, particulary on imports produced in China by American companies which would basicaly devastate Chinese export based industries.

[RN7]

I guess. But more recently than the Japanese or Mongols have fought China, we had that iddy biddy disagreement we call the Korean War, and that never actually ended. I know that didn't involve western troops on Chinese soil but the Chinese clearly regard North Korea as being vital as a buffer-state.

But was the Korean War realy a Chinese war against America or was it a Russian backed Communist proxy war against America?

If the Chinese nationalists had won the Chinese Civil War a few years earlier would they have realy went to war with America and other western forces in the Korean Peninsula. Shortly after the Korean war ended (finished actually fighting) the Chinese Communists started fighting their Russian allies along their borders in the late 1950's and early 1960's, before breaking off political relations and leading to a Tri-Polar Cold War between the US, the USSR and China, which then reverted on its head when Nixon visited Communist China in 1972.

[Legbreaker]

Considering the Chinese had a few hundred thousand troops on the ground in Korea and the Russians little more than a few "advisors"....

[Webstral]

Tibet, Xinjiang!

Be specific about what that means. I'm well aware of Chinese aggression in these areas. However, you have chosen to compare Communist China with Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. Therefore, you must draw direct parallels for your comparison to stand; otherwise, choose a different comparison.

[bobcat]

Be specific about what that means. I'm well aware of Chinese aggression in these areas. However, you have chosen to compare Communist China with Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. Therefore, you must draw direct parallels for your comparison to stand; otherwise, choose a different comparison.

not really part of the debate but my best guess on that would be the arms buildup of the 30's being a good parallel. no real clue now or then why all them guns are needed. china is sponsering a majority of armed combatants in proxy wars against the US.(hence new manufacture chinese type 56 rifles in afghanistan) which is similar to german involvement in spain in the 30's. and of course the financial manuvering.

[manunancy]

The funny thing about Chinese perception of aggression from the West is that the nations that have historicaly harmed them the worst were other Asian people, ie the Japanese and the Mongols. America who has been the greatest of all Western powers for some time has in fact been China's greatest ally.

things like the opium wars and the following crubling of the chines monarchy into the warlord"s mess of the first half of the 20th century are recent events that have done very little to endear 'the west' to China. The mongols may have been invaders, but they kept China more or less in one part.

The halfhearthed support during the japanese invasion of that period along with the later support of the thoroughly rotten and widely unpopular nationalists under Chang Kai Chek didn't help either.

Compared with china's several thousand years of history, it's still fresh memories.

[RN7]

Considering the Chinese had a few hundred thousand troops on the ground in Korea and the Russians little more than a few "advisors"....

I think the Chinese had about one million troops in Korea duing the entire war as opposed to about 25,000 Russian advisors. But most of the modern tanks, artillery, technical support and replacement equipment used by the Communist side were supplied by the Russians, and most combat pilots were also Russian, hense the word proxy war.

[RN7]

Be specific about what that means. I'm well aware of Chinese aggression in these areas. However, you have chosen to compare Communist China with Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. Therefore, you must draw direct parallels for your comparison to stand; otherwise, choose a different comparison.

According to Amnesty International about 1.2 million Tibetans have died as a direct result of the Chinese occupation of Tibet. Over 6000 monasteries and institutes of learning have been destroyed and valuable artifacts vandalized and sold in Hong Kong. Tibetans in Tibet are second class citizen without basic Human Rights, such as Freedom of Expression, Freedom of Religion, Right to Education. Tibetan women are subjected to forced abortion and sterilization. Tibetan Children are denied their right to education. 70% of Tibetans living in Tibet now are illiterate. Arbitrary arrests, torture, intimidation and imprisonment without trial are the order of the day for Tibetans in their country. Tibet has been divided into different parts and incorporated with Chinese provinces, thereby removing the existing Tibetan identity. Thousands of Tibetans are still in prisons in China. Tibet,c,"s natural resources and fragile ecology are irreversibly destroyed. 6 Million Tibetans have been outnumbered by 7.5 Million Han Chinese inducted into Tibet causing demographic disadvantage to Tibetans in their own country.

In Xinjiang a full scale insurection against Chinese domination of the region and the native Uighurs is underway that is in many ways comparable to what is going on in Afghanistan but largely hushed up by the Chinese government. The reasons for this? See Tibet.

Without even talking about what happened at Tianamen Square the way the Chinese Government is capable of treating its own people is illustrated by the Chinese Cultural Revoultion from 1966 to 1976, which was started by their great leader Mao to enforce socialism by removing capitalist, traditional and cultural elements from Chinese society, and impose his will on the nation and Chinese Communist Party. Not only was the country socially and economically damaged on a huge scale, but millions of innocent Chinese were persecuted in the violent factional struggles that ensued across the country, and suffered a wide range of abuses such as torture, rape, imprisonment, sustained harassment, and seizure of property. A large segment of the population was forcibly displaced, most notably the transfer of urban youth to rural regions and many historical relics and artifacts were destroyed. The death toll among Han Chinese is unknown but probably was in the millions, but ethnic minorities suffered worse. In Inner Mongolia 23,000 people were beaten to death and 120,000 were maimed during a witchhunt to find members of the alleged separatist New Inner Mongolian People's Revolutionary Party. In Xinjiang, copies of the Qu'ran and other books of the Uyghur people were burned, and Imans were paraded around with paint splashed on their bodies. In Yunnan Province, the palace of the Dai people's king was torched, and an infamous massacre of Hui Muslim people at the hands of the People's Liberation Army in Yunnan, known as the "Shadian incident", reportedly claimed over 1,600 lives in 1975.

However a comparable comparison might be Stalanist Russia.

[RN7]

things like the opium wars and the following crubling of the chines monarchy into the warlord"s mess of the first half of the 20th century are recent events that have done very little to endear 'the west' to China. The mongols may have been invaders, but they kept China more or less in one part.

The halfhearthed support during the japanese invasion of that period along with the later support of the thoroughly rotten and widely unpopular nationalists under Chang Kai Chek didn't help either.

Compared with china's several thousand years of history, it's still fresh memories.

The Chinese actually started the Opium Wars themselves by restricting western and all foreign acces to trade with China as they wanted all the profits for themselves. Although Opium is a fairly odious sustance it was a traded commodity and was used and sold by the Chinese themselves. In some ways there are parallels with today in all of this.

Sure the Mongols kept China in one part, the death toll in the Mongol invasion of China is estimated at 60 million. They killed everyone who resisted them.

[headquarters]

OT

Posters are steadily nudging this thread OT - the thread as far as I see it is a discussion about the technical capacity, motivations and military/diplomatic implications of an advanced Chinese blue water navy. I am not saying that it should be this ONLY - but its getting political with refernces to domestic US politics etc etc .

The last 10-20 posts about the ills in the Chinese political system are not really on this topic as far as I can judge. That said - I am not trying to dishearten debate or anything, but this harsh characterization of China - be it true or groundless - and I know SOME of it to be true - could be a little much for some.

To try and get back on track - building a force projection capacity like carriers etc doesnt seem all that sinister considering the huge interests China has outside its borders - nationals working all over Asia and Africa in great numbers, economical interests in oil, minerals etc in said areas.. It would be considered pretty reckless in other political systems to build no such capacity in view of these interests.

[RN7]

Posters are steadily nudging this thread OT - the thread as far as I see it is a discussion about the technical capacity, motivations and military/diplomatic implications of an advanced Chinese blue water navy. I am not saying that it should be this ONLY - but its getting political with refernces to domestic US politics etc etc .

The last 10-20 posts about the ills in the Chinese political system are not really on this topic as far as I can judge. That said - I am not trying to dishearten debate or anything, but this harsh characterization of China - be it true or groundless - and I know SOME of it to be true - could be a little much for some.

To try and get back on track - building a force projection capacity like carriers etc doesnt seem all that sinister considering the huge interests China has outside its borders - nationals working all over Asia and Africa in great numbers, economical interests in oil, minerals etc in said areas.. It would be considered pretty reckless in other political systems to build no such capacity in view of these interests.

The new Chinese carrier is a flag shower, nothing else. I'd be more concerned if China started building up a fleet of powerful nuclear attack submarines with land attack capabilities, or actually started building a couple of nuclear powered aircraft carriers in the Nimitz or Ford class.

The Chinese navy couldn't hope to challenge American naval power in the Pacific at the moment. But if India and Thailand have carriers, and Japan, South Korea and Australia are building helicopter carrying assault ships then the Chinese probably feel they should have one as well.