Announcement

**dragoon500ly** · 06-15-2011, 08:17 AM

The first aircraft carrier to be sunk in action was the HMS Courageous which was hit by two torpedoes on Sept 17, 1939.

Her sister ship, HMS Glorious was the second carrier to be lost when she ran into the KMS Scharnhorst and Gneisenau on June 8, 1940.

The first carrier sunk in the Pacific was also British, HMS Hermes was sunk by air attack on March 9, 1942.

The first US carrier, USS Langley was sunk by aircraft in Feb 1942. No longer an aircraft carrier, she had been converted into a aircraft transport and was moving AAC P-40s to Java when she was sunk.

The first Japanese carrier lost was HIJMS Shoho, sunk in the Battle of the Coral Sea on May 8, 1942. The first US carrier to be sunk, the USS Lexington followed shortly thereafter.

The last American fleet carrier to be sunk was USS Hornet, on Oct 24, 1942.

The last Japanese carrier to be sunk, HIJMS Amagi was pounded to death by airstrikes in Kure Harbor on July 24, 1945.

**headquarters** · 06-15-2011, 08:41 AM

Technological level of the Imperial Japanese naval forces

The discussion is an interesting one - although we know who won the war, the Japanese fielded several interesting and highly advanced craft. For their time.

Among these were several submarines like the I-14 and the I -201 and indeed the I-400 class.

Arguably these were some of the more interesting designs of the war - although operational use didnt amount to any major advantage for the IJN.

I enclose a link that is to be taken by a grain of salt - but indicative, still.

It is worth to remember that the performance of the IJN was hampered to some extent by rigid lines of command and doctrine that was outdated by the time the massive US airpower could be brought to bear.

Japanese Submarines

http://www.combinedfleet.com/ss.htm

**RN7** · 06-15-2011, 10:17 AM

I love talking about WW2, more!

**dragoon500ly** · 06-15-2011, 01:15 PM

The longest range in which a land-based artillery piece ever deliberately hit a target was a US Army 16-inch/45 coast defense gun which scored a hit at 35,200 yards (17.4 nautical miles) in August 1938 under what was described as "perfect conditions of weather and sea".

The longest range hit at sea happened on July 9, 1940 when the British battleship Warspite put a 15-inch round into the Italian battleship Giulio Cesare at 26,000 yards (12.8 nautical miles).

There were actually several battleship engagements in WWII

North Sea, April 9, 1940: KMS Scharnhorst and KMS Gneisenau fight an indecisive action with HMS Renown off Norway.

Mers El-Kebir, July 3, 1940: The HMS Resolution, HMS Valiant and HMS Hood bombard the French fleet near Oran, Algeria. Sinking the old battleship Bretagne, badly damaging her sister Provence and less seriously damaging the new Dunkerque while the latter's sister Strasbourg escaped unscathed.

Calabria, July 9, 1940: Another intense, but indecisive action is fought in between the Italian Giulio Cesare and Conte di Cavour vs. HMS Warspite, HMS Royal Sovereign and HMS Malaya.

Denmark Strait, May 24, 1941: KMS Bismarck and the heavy cruiser Prinz Eugen sink HMS Hood and badly damaging HMS Prince of Wales.

North Atlantic, May 27, 1941: HMS King George V and HMS Rodney get revenge for the sinking of Hood by reducing Bismarck to a shattered wreck.

Casablanca, November 8, 1942: USS Massachusetts exchanges gunfire with the partially competed French Jean Beat which is badly damaged.

The 2nd Naval Battle of Guadalcanal, November 14-15, 1942: HIJMS Kirishima vs. USS Washington and USS South Dakota. South Dakota was damaged and Kirishima was pounded so badly that she had to be scuttled the next morning.

North Cape, December 26, 1943: HMS Duke of York sinks KMS Scharnhorst in a protracted slugging match.

The Battle of Surigao Strait, October 24-25, 1944: A US squadron including USS Mississippi, USS Maryland, USS West Virginia, USS Tennessee, USS California and USS Pennsylvania (all but the Mississippi being veterans of Pearl Harbor) vs. HIJMS Fuso and HIJMS Yamashiro. The IJN was ambushed by the US battleships and thier escorts in an action that was so one-sided that Pennsylvania never got a chance to fire. This is the last battleship action in history.

**dragoon500ly** · 06-15-2011, 01:35 PM

We've mentioned on a couple of threads the effect that Kamikaze's had on the Allies and the late war strategic decision to drop the A-bombs.

Kamikaze's were organized in the fall of 1944 and the first attack took place on October 25, 1944 off Samar Island in the southern Philippines. The results were encourging with two CVEs damaged and one CVE sunk.

Further attacks were made in between October 1944 and January 1945. 378 Kamikazes were sent out, all were lost as well as 102 escorting fighters. The sank 16 ships (2 CVEs, 3 DDs, 1 DMS and several smaller craft) and another 87 were damaged (7 CVs, 2 CVLs, 13 CVEs, 5 BBs, 3 CAs, 7 CLs, 23 DDs, 5 DEs,and 1 DMS). Shocked by the sudden change in Japanese tactics, the USN quickly began to change its defensive procedures in an effort to limit the damage that would be caused by future Kamikazes.

The Battle of Iwo Jima saw further Kamikaze attacks. The Japanese were hampered by the extreme range to be flown and their attacks were not as devastating. Several ships were struck, but the only real damage was to one CV and to a CVE that was sunk.

The Battle of Okinawa in April 1945 was the heyday of the Kamikaze. The Japanese deployed over 1,500 kamikazes (all lost) and nearly as many regular aircraft against the USN. American losses were heavy. 21 ships were sunk and 43 damaged so badly that repairs were not completed by the end of the war, another 23 were damaged, but would return to service within 30 days and 151 more were damaged to one degree or another. The USN suffered 9,700 casualties, 4,300 of whom were dead. For the Navy, the Battle of Okinawa was the most costly of the war. Seven percent of all USN losses for the war were suffered off of Okinawa.

All of this was in spite of the many counter-measures taken against the Kamikazes. In addition to better control of defending fighters and antiaircraft guns, there was inhanced crew training in damage control. There was also the the use of radar-equipped destroyers with fighter direction parties forming a picket line to give advance warning of Kamikazes and to direct fighters onto them.

The key problem facing the USN was that the Japanese had 200 airfields within range of Okinawa, too many even for the vast air power available to the US to shut down.

After Okinawa was Operation Downfall, the two invasions that would be launched against Japan itself. For this eventuality, the Japanese had over 5,000 Kamikazes ready. And since this would be fought close to the Japanese home islands, radar pickets and fighters would be less effective. The USN estimated that supporting Downfall would cost them over 10,000 casualties and at least 300 ships sunk or damaged.

**ShadoWarrior** · 06-15-2011, 02:18 PM

For Operation Olympic, the first stage of Operation Downfall, it was estimated that there would be a quarter million to a half a million US casualties, over 100,000 of which would be fatalities. And if the operations took longer than anticipated, casualties could/would climb upwards of one and a quarter million. Those were the estimates by US military officers. The estimates by outside (civilian) consultants were about 4-5 times higher!

Plans were also being made to drop up to 15 atomic bombs on and behind the invasion beaches, with troops following just 48 hours later. Needless to say, this would not have been very good for the invading troops.

**95th Rifleman** · 06-15-2011, 02:30 PM

HMS Hood was taken down by a single shell to her magazine. Plunging shot went straight through her wooden deck.

**RN7** · 06-15-2011, 02:54 PM

Originally posted by 95th Rifleman View Post

HMS Hood was taken down by a single shell to her magazine. Plunging shot went straight through her wooden deck.

Hood was a battlecruiser so thats no suprise. I can see the rational behind the Royal Navy sending the Hood to track Bismarck and Prinz Eugen as she could do 31kts at flank speed, but what a waste of human life ordering her to take on a powerful modern battleship like Bismarck. The whole battlecruiser concept had been exposed at Jutland in 1916, and was totaly obsolete by WW2 with the rapid development of aircraft since WW1.

**ShadoWarrior** · 06-15-2011, 02:59 PM

The British had to have lessons literally pounded into them, just as the Americans did.

**RN7** · 06-15-2011, 03:09 PM

Originally posted by ShadoWarrior View Post

For Operation Olympic, the first stage of Operation Downfall, it was estimated that there would be a quarter million to a half a million US casualties, over 100,000 of which would be fatalities. And if the operations took longer than anticipated, casualties could/would climb upwards of one and a quarter million. Those were the estimates by US military officers. The estimates by outside (civilian) consultants were about 4-5 times higher!

Plans were also being made to drop up to 15 atomic bombs on and behind the invasion beaches, with troops following just 48 hours later. Needless to say, this would not have been very good for the invading troops.

Would have been some invasion force all the same;

20 Aircraft Carriers, 36 Escort Carriers, 20 Battleships, 52 Cruisers, 460 Destroyers and Escorts, 5 USAAC Air Forces including 1,000 B-29s, 1 Armoured Division, 9 Infantry Divisions, 1 Airborne Division and 3 Marine Divisions. Plus 6 British Aircraft Carriers and the rest of the British Pacific Fleet, 22 RAF Bomber Squadrons and 20 Australian fighter squadrons.

**dragoon500ly** · 06-16-2011, 07:57 AM

Originally posted by 95th Rifleman View Post

HMS Hood was taken down by a single shell to her magazine. Plunging shot went straight through her wooden deck.

There is also a lot of debate as to who actually fired the killing shell, a study that was done recently disputed the claim that Bismarck sank the Hood, the ballistics of the the 15-inch shell simply wouldn't have penetrated the armor at that range; too shallow an angle. Prinz Eugen's 8-inch shells would be coming down almost vertically and thus have a better chance of penetrating Hood's deck armor.

A debate that has been argued over many a glass of beer!

**dragoon500ly** · 06-16-2011, 08:29 AM

Operation Downfall was the overall plan for the invasion of Japan. It would consist of two sub-operations.

Operation Olympic was to capture the bottom seventy miles of Kyushu (the southern most of the Japanese home islands). Its objective was to secure ports and airfields to support the second phase. Olympic would consist of three landings, one on the west coast of Kushikino, another in the south at Ariake Bay and the third on the east coast at Miyazaki City. Naval support would consist of 9 BB, 20 CV/CVL, 88 DD, 295 troop transports, 95 attack cargo ships and 555 LSTs just to name some of the forces to be involved.

The Western Landing Force (40th Infantry Division) would seize several small islands west and southwest of Kyushu five days prior to the main landings and set up fighter direction, radar warning, guidance and commo facilities as well as securing safe anchorges for hospital ships and damaged vessels. One day later, the Southern Landing Force would land the 158th Regimental Combat Team on Tanega Island, south of Kyushu, for the same purpose.

X-Day was to be November 1, 1945. The Third Landing Force (1st Cavalry Division, 43rd Infantry Division and the Americal Division) would assault Ariake Bay; the 5th Landing Force (2nd, 3rd and 5th Marine Divisions) would land on the Kushikino beaches and the Seventh Landing Force (25th, 33rd and 41st Infantry Divisions) the Miyazaki area. The Reserve Landing Force (77th, 81st and 98th Infantry Divisions) would not go ashore before November 5th, but would conduct divisionary landings with two of its divisions off the island of Shikoku on October 30, X-2. The Reinforcement Force (11th Airborne Division) was not scheduled for action before November 23, X+22.

The Japanese defenders of Kyushu was made up of the 16th Area Army, consisting of 40th, 56th and 57th Armies (equivalent to US Army Corps). The 16th Area Army would have some 15 divisions as well as numerous independent brigades, regiments and battalions. Prior to the invasion, the 16th Area Army had a ration strength of 750,000 men. Plans to reinforce the invasion area would have increased Army strength (not counting Navy and volunteer combat personnel) to 990,000 men.

The Japanese also prepared "Tokubetsu Kogeki" or Special Attack units to assist in the defense, these were the suicide attack or Kamikazes. According to Japanese records some 10,500 Kamikazes were ready for the Americans. Mostly made up of obsolete and training aircraft as well as the new, Tokka Kamikaze attack aircraft; there were also significant numbers of Oka and Kikka manned rocket bombs. The IJN provided some 3,000 Shinyo motorboats (crammed with explosives, their volunteer crews would ram thier craft into ships and denotate their cargo). Also available were 1,000 underwater special attack craft; the Kaiten was a manned torpedo, the Sea Dragon and Dragon Larva were one manned midget submarines. The last component of the special attack units were over 4,000 Fukuryu or "Crouching Dragons" These were human mines that would wear diving dress and carry long poles attached to explosive charges. Their mission was to attack the assault craft as they approached the invasion beaches.

The Japanese defenders were short of equipment, many of the defending divisions were as short as 50% below TO&E levels. Especially lacking were antitank weapons, so the IJA resorted to the issue of hand carried explosive charges. Another addition to their suicide forces were the kokumin Giyu Sento-Tai, the National Volunteer Combat Force or Giyu. These were poorly trained and even more poorly equipped (bamboo spears or rifles with only 15 rds) volunteers consisting of all men between 15-60 and all women between 17-40, only the infirm or pregeant were allowed to not "volunteer". The Giyu would not wear any uniforms, only a small patch marked with the symbol for "sen", combatant was allowed to give them military status under international law.

By any standard, Operation Olympic was going to be a bloody, bloody battle!

**dragoon500ly** · 06-16-2011, 09:23 AM

As the Allies approached Japan, the decision to invade was hotly debated. Of deep concern was how the civilian population would act as the Allies drove inland from the invasion beaches. On two previous occasions, the Americans had meet Japanese civilians.

On Saipan two thirds of the civilian population were killed, a large minority of them had committed suicide rather than be captured. The garrison of 30,000 troops had inflicted 14,000 casualties on the Americans.

On Okinawa, 107,000 Japanese soldiers and at least 75,000 civilians were killed. The Japanese inflicted 60,000 combat and 40,000 noncombat casualties on the US.

The military estimates for Operation Olympic included 125,000 casualties (including 31,000 dead). Operation Coronet was twice as large as Olympic and casualties were expected to be twice as many. The total estimate for the Downfall operations would be about 370,000 (including 80,000 dead) Allied losses.

So just were did the "million US dead" come from

For the most part, this statement appears in the memoirs of various politicans who were trying to make the case for the use of the atom bomb. This mythical million dead began as an exaggeration of the 370,000 casualties figure (often given as "between 250,000 to 500,000" in military briefing documents from the period). Half a million quickly became a million and casualties became deaths. Newspapers quickly picked up on the million dead because it made better copy. While the million American dead is a sheer myth, the military estimates of 80,000 killed and 290,000 wounded were very realistic, based as they were on recent experience. Any invasion of Japan would have increased the American deaths in World War II by 27%. Avoiding this invasion by any means possible was no laughing matter.

So what other options were available By the spring of 1945, the naval blockade of Japan was growing tighter. Food was tightly rationed with the average civilian getting 75% of the minimum caloric intake. The winter of 1945-46 would have seen starvation, but keep in mind, that Japan was minimally self-sufficient in food production. While many would starve, most could survive indefinitely. Food shortages would hurt, but it would not lead the the social disintegration necessary to overthrow the military government. Starvation would not guarantee a Japanese surrender and the Allies could not, for political reasons (the voters wanted the war over, now) keep a million soldiers and sailors under arms for a year or more enforcing the blockade.

The problem that faced the Allies was how to get Japan to surrender as soon as possible. The Japanese, in mid-1945, were offering to surrender much as the Germans had done in World War One. In that case the German Army remained relative intact, this was what the Japanese wanted. The Allies were well aware that leaving the German Army intact after WWI had played a key part in its reemergence in WWII.

By August, 1945 the negotiations had come down to the point to whether or not the Japanese Emperor would be allowed to remain on the throne. The Allies were willing to conceed the point as it was viewed that the emperor and his authority would be needed to keep the population under control during the occupation of Japan. Unfortunately, the Japanese made the error of sending their messages through their ambassador in Moscow. And the Soviets had their own agenda. On August 8,1945, the Soviets invaded Manchuria and swept away the Japanese garrison. It was to maintain their position in China that Japan had gone to war in the first place and now, China was lost to them. American bombers had already burned out most of Japan's cities and then, on August 6th and 9th, came the atomic bombs. On August 15th, the emperor issued the order to surrender.

Since then, many have argued the need to drop the atomic bombs. This is all hindsight. AT THE TIME, nothing seemed likely to dissuade the Japanese from making a suicidal last stand in their home islands. The Japanese military had already demonstrated their willingness to fight to the last. Saipan and Okinawa merely confirmed that Japanese civilians were every bit as determined as their militar. Japan had never surrendered.

A naval and air blockade was the only other alternative to any invasion and no one was sure how long this would have to be maintained in order to bring the Japanese to terms. Most estimates had a blockade bringing a surrender sometime in 1946-47, but the Japanese could drag this process out for several years. The Allies could not support this for political reasons, war weariness had set in, the heavy casualties suffered so far had many wanting the troops home. The people wanted peace. Japan had to be defeated as soon as possible and by whatever means possible.

The atomic bombs were not decisive weapon. The US only had three bombs, one of which was expended as a test. It was estimated that it would be at least another three months before the US had enough material for another atomic bomb. What the atomic bomb had going for it was shock. One bomb dropped by a single plane, doing the damage that 600 bombers did in one night. The Japanese didn't know how many more atomic bombs the Americans had, and the US left it to their imaginations how many it might have and how quickly it would use them against the Japanese. But against a people who seemed to disdain death, there was doubt that even the atomic bomb would bring the Japanese to surrender.

Japan required an unprecedented series of calamities before surrender became possible. Destruction of her fleet, the isolation of nearly 400,000 soldier in Pacific island garrisions, most of her cities reduced to ash and rubble, blockade of her ports, the loss of most of her intact armies (in Manchuria) and finally, the use of the atomic bombs. No one, at the time, know how much it would take to force the Japanese to surrender.

But the atomic bombings finally convinced the Japanese that the Allies were willing to destroy them as a people. On August 15,1945, the Emperor of Japan did one of those things that Japanese emperors rarely did. He overrode all opposing counsel and broadcast the order to surrender. With no assurances that the Allies would respect the imperial institutions of Japan, the Emperor threw himself, and his people, upon the uncertain mercies of the same peoples Japan had savagely fought for the past four years.

**ShadoWarrior** · 06-16-2011, 10:09 AM

Originally posted by dragoon500ly View Post

But the atomic bombings finally convinced the Japanese that the Allies were willing to destroy them as a people.

This is a myth. Even after two atomic bombings the Japanese military (mainly the Army generals) did not care about the losses due to bombing (of any sort). As I mentioned before (in the original thread), what finally drove half the Japanese leadership (including the Emperor) to contemplate surrender was the Soviet invasion of Japanese territory. It was the Russians invading them (on Aug. 9), the threat of the Soviets destroying them as a people, that motivated the Emperor to seek an immediate peace. Prior to that their thinking was that if they (the Japanese) inflicted enough casualties on the Allies (the US and Commonwealth) the Allies would be forced to negotiate on terms more favorable to the Japanese. There was no such possibility with the Soviets, since Stalin didn't care how many troops he lost in the process of grabbing land in the Far East, and the Japanese knew this.

Announcement

OT Navies in WWII

OT Navies in WWII

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment