OT: Recruiting for a T2K game, in a different setting

[dragoon500ly]

First, please remember that this is an Alternative Historical Setting...any realtionship to reality is purely accidential!

1)In 1914 the US was still an underdeveloped frontier country

( I dont agree with that. we had some of the biggest citys in the world...New york,detroit,boston,san fran,just to name a few and over the last 4 years of war we have tooled up real nice to make goods for england and france. also we have taken no damage and no loss of troops.)

The quote on a US population of 100 million is right, please refer to the US Census for 1910, most Americans still lived in rual or small towns, there are no interstates, the primary means of interstate travel is the railroad. Cars are still considered fancy toys, although Ford and the Model T are making inroads, most Americans use horses or bicycles to get around town.

[QUOTE]2)The USMC report straight out of their historical center

(What historical center and what book., I'm a 20 year career officer so you have to come with facts..times...dates....[QUOTE]

The USMC Historical Division at their website, historical.usmc.mil there are a series of monographs that you can reference.

3)Navy
When it comes to navy your numbers are correct for 1914 not 1919 when the us had been building ships for 4 years gearing up I have a link for a masters paper on this subject if you would like it. remember this was the age of coal. where and when would the german fleet coal at coming to the east coast the gulf of mexico and the carab are american lakes ringed with spanish war bases....hard for me to see them winning a sea fight ...there ships would be worn out from the trip and out of gas. us fleet would be fresh with interior supply lines....also we own vera cruz the largest mexican port so the germans are fucked. the us wont let any power into the west at this point let alone let germany build supplys for a year for an invasion....the brits well you have them giving up. I have fought with leg on this board for 3 years!!! brits, aussies and jocks,mics and new zealanders dont give up!!!!! not in there dna. even if wrong they fight to the death. so brit fleet is still there sorry. they did not give up in world war one or any other time in history why would they roll over now. The won jutland why would they quit.

Let me see, my primary source for the ship counts was the 1920 Jane's Fighting Ships, this was the first addition put out after the end of the war and included all war time losses. I've always been impressed with the accuracy of Jane's and frankly see no need to change at this time.

You are correct about the need to coal, although many major warships are converting to oil/coal propulsion. Bases are surely needed, but the primary focus of my story is on the Army, to be perfectly frank, I used GM-fiat to decree that the Germans are able to make the transit.

One of the things I enjoy about the older Janes is a little section in front of the books that includes small scale harbor charts of the major fleet bases so, without further ado, the US naval stations of 1920:
New York & Brooklyn Naval Yards; the primary fleet support base and construction site for many of the Navy's warships.
Hampton Roads (Norfolk VA); Atlantic Fleet headquarters and another site for the construction of ships.
These are 2nd class naval yards, no construction but resupply, some repair facilities: Boston, League Island (Philadelphia, has two slips for construction), Washington D.C., Portsmouth NH, Charleston SC, Narraganset Bay RI (fleet anchorage), Newport RI, Cape May NJ, New London CT.
For the Gulf Coast & Caribbean: New Orleans LA, Pensacola FL, Key West FL (no docks, refueling only), Guantanamo Bay Cuba (fleet anchorage), Atlantic Entrance to Panama Canal (Colon, Panama).
A note on Gitmo, the harbor had no coast defenses and is a single passage, very easy to blockade.

A point about Vera Cruz, to be sure the US had major intrests there, but in a Mexican-American war, you will grant me the point that perhaps the Mexicans might take some kind of action to correct this state of affairs

One of the background points for the game is that the British had to evacuate France following the French surrender. A cease fire is in effect and a Cold War-like situation currently exists. At no point in time did I say that the Brits & the Commonwealth rolled over and gave up. A cease-fire to buy time to build new Alliances, to build up forces, hate to say it, but historically the British have done that same sort of thing before. French forces fled to the UK to continue the fight, hardly sounds like King George said enough is enough They continue the fight and I will not say anymore on this point as it will reveal future events in the game.

4)Shortages of every kind

What would they be short of Rifles every man in usa has one maybe even a pistol. it would be bad for any army coming to us. we have interior supply lines they have to come over the sea witch we control! the desert is a bad place to be let alone fight. we have all logistic atvatages....

Wow. Every book I've ever read on the US entry into World War One stated that there were severe shortages, Franch provided ALL of the artillery used by the AEF for example. In tanks, the US Ford 6-ton tank had 12 models built by November, 1918. The US made Tank Mark VIII the so-called "Liberty" model consisted of a single prototype! All tanks used by the AEF were either British heavy tanks or French light tanks. All aircraft used by the AEF, you guessed it, French-made. Prior to the US entry, the Army and Navy were specifically forbidden by the government to make any plans for mobilization or to make plans for sending troops to France. That is how unprepared the US was going into the war. To be sure, Russia and England were ordering equipment from the US, mostly consisiting of ammunition, small arms, food stocks, shoes, and various other support equipment.

There is a book titled US Infantry Weapons of the First World War by Bruce Canfield. This is a fairly complete recap of just how bad the problems were, JUST in relation to providing small arms to the troops:
Pistols: M1911; M1892 .38LC Revolvers; M1917 S&W and Colt Revolvers.
Rifles: M1903 Springfiled; M1917 US Enfield; M1898 Krag; Canadian Ross Mark II; M1891 Mosin-Nagant; French Lebel; French Berthier; British SMLE. And don't think the list ends there! Rifles were in such short supply that Winchester M1894 carbines were purchased to arm soldiers guarding the Pacific Northwest spruce forests (spruce was a critical item because it was the perferred wood for building aircraft)! The Krag and Ross rifles were used for training in the states so that first-line rifles could be sent to France.
Automatic Rifles: the French Berthier; French M1915 Chauchat; US M1918 Chauchat and the Browning Auto Rifle.
Machine Guns: Colt M1895; Colt M1914; US M1904 Maxim; French M1909 Benet-Mercie; Belgian Lewis; British Vickers Mark I; French M1914 Hotchkiss; French M1907 Saint Etienne; US M1917 Browning.
Grenade launcher: French Viven-Bessiere.
This is just a partial list and as can be seen, the AEF relied on a lot of foreign made weapons. Some of these were produced in the US to be sure, but they were originally intended to be used by those foreign governments to arm thier own militaries! This is how bad the US Army was for modern weapons of any kind.

5)the M1917 US Enfield rifle

As it entered World War I, the UK had an urgent need for rifles and contracts for the new rifle were placed with arms companies in the United States. They decided to ask these companies to produce the new rifle design in the old .303 caliber for logistic commonality. The new rifle was termed the "Pattern 14." In the case of the P14 rifle, Winchester and Remington were selected. A third plant, a subsidiary of Remington, was tooled up at the Baldwin Locomotive Works in Eddystone, PA. Thus three variations of the P14 and M1917 exist, labeled "Winchester," "Remington" and "Eddystone." Number built

2,193,429 total this was in two years.(dont think we will have rifle shortage)

The US Enfield was quoted as an example....you also need to include how many of these rifles were provided to England, records indicate that a total of 1,235,298 were made and shipped to our British cousins. The remaining US Enfields were rechambered for .30-06 and issued to the AEF...because of shortfalls in the production of the Springfield!

We can debate all of the fine details to our heart contents, but this is a Alternative History Setting, please allow me some creative license!

[dragoon500ly]

Is it just me are is this thread turning into a defense of a German-Mexican invasion of the US

[dragoon500ly]

Perhaps this will make the so-called German invasion of the US clearer...

A lot of this I'm taking straight out of the German/Turkish fighting in the Middle East. In other words, the Germans are providing logistical support and advisors with critical mission specialists thrown in as well.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, the Germans are sending people to Mexico, but just as they did in Turkey, the specialists are "imigrating", they are "Mexican citizens", they are even changing their names so that from all outside apperances, they are "Mexican nationals".

Its a political fiction to disguise German involvement. All the i's are dotted and the t's crossed, its a legality.

So the US is in a position where it cannot attack GERMAN-flagged shipping, that pesky cease-fire that was signed in order to bring the AEF home. For a US Warship to attack a German-flagged merchant, why that would be an act of war!

The German submarines sold to Mexico are simply war surplus, sold to a soverign government for thier own military use. That the use was to invade the US, why that's such a shame! But Germany is not involved in this disagreement, especially when the Mexicans are trying to reclaim land that was stolen from them in the first place! And Germany stands ready to assist in the negotations to bring about a peaceful resolution to this problem. In the meantime, Mexico is a valued customer of German products.

Soooo, how does this impact players

Well, its primarily Mexican troops that doing the fighting, the artillery, the machinegunners, a lot of the engineers are "German-born". Virtually all of the "Mexican" Air Force saw combat on the Western Front in 1916-18 and flying the same aircraft now.

The "Mexican" Navy has an awful lot of "German-born", especially in the new submarines.

[dragoon500ly]

World War One Bayonets or "Give'em the Cold Steel!"

I'm a big fan of military weapons. My grand-dad collected Winchesters, dad was a fan of anything produced by Colt, me, as long as it was an issue weapon, I'm a collector, my wife keeps promising to buy a steel storage shed and move me and my guns out there. But I degress...

World War One saw a wide selection of weapons used by the Doughboys and Devil Dogs:

The Springfield rifle used the M1905 Bayonet in both bright finish (most common) and parkerized (late 1918) finish. This was a typical knife bayont that measured 20-inches overall, with a 16-inch blade (single-edged with a 4-inch "false-edge" coming to a point). Issued with a wooden scabbard, first covered in rawhide and then with a canvas covering stitched in place over the rawhide and with a cartridge belt hook so that it could be clipped under the cartridge belt.

The US Enfield rifle used the M1917 bayonet and this was the most commonly issue bayonet. It was issued in the "two-toned" finish; the guard, hilt and ricasso were blued and the blade had a grayish phosphate finish. It measured 21.8-inches in length and had a 17-inch blade. This was a single-edge blade that came to a sharper point than the M1905. Two styles of scabbard were issued, both were of wood covered with green leather and differed only in the method of securing the scabbard to the cartridge belt. Both the M1917 and the M1905 could be used on either Springfield or Enfield. The M1917 was also issued for use with trench guns.

The Krag M1892 bayonet was obsolete, but was used for training in the states as well as issued to Naval landing parties. It was 16 1/4-inches long with a 11 3/4-inch blade (the M1905 copied the style of the blade). It was available only in bright finish and was issued with an all metal scabbard that had a long metal hook that suspended it from the Mills Krag cartridge belt.

The Canadian Ross Mark I bayonet was purchased from Canada and were used for training in the states. The bayonet had a bright finish and was 14 3/4-inches long with a 10 1/8-inch long "butcher blade" style blade. It was issued with a brown leather scabbard with a reinforced throat and a long belt loop.

The M1891 Mosin-Nagant bayonet was, at best, an anachronistic weapon. This was an all metal socket bayonet (not much different from those issued in the 1700s!) with a cruicform blade that was 17-inches long. The tip of the bayonet had a chisel point and could be used as a screwdriver to open ammunition crates. The bayonet was blued and was not issued with a scabbard as it was intended to be fixed to the Mosin-Nagant rifle at all times. The bayonet (and its rifle) saw service with US troops in North Russia were it saw combat.

The French M1886 Berthier and Lebel bayonets. This was a unique, quatrefoil blade, spike-type bayonet. The hilts were brass or aluminum. The bayonet was 25.5-inches long and had a unique hooked quillon. These were often referred to as "knitting needles", French soldiers also referred to the bayonet as "Rosalie" it was issued with a leather scabbard. It was used for training by AEF units in France and was used in action by the 360th, 361st, 362nd, 363rd, 364th, 365th, 366th, 367th, 368th, 369th, 370th, 371st and 372 Infantry Regiments (Colored). These units were detached to service with the French were they earned a reputation for their fighting capability.

The British M1907 Mark I bayonet was issued along with the SMLE rifle to those AEF units serving with the British. It was very similar in design to the US M1917 bayonet, including the same 18-inch sword type blade and a virtually identical hilt. It was issued with a leather scabbard with a brass throat and attached to the cartridge belt by a canvas hanger.

[dragoon500ly]

Trench Knives or "How to say I'm going to hurt you, a lot!"

While bayonets had been around for centuries, World War One spawned the use of combat knives. While knives had been used by soldiers for centuries, trench warfare led to the development of what can only be called some very brutal designs.

The first US trench knife was the M1918 Trench Knife. It featured a slender, sharp-pointed 9-inch long triangular blade (little more than a sharpened spike) with a metal knuckle bow fitted with pyramidal-shaped projections. All metal parts were blued. The design was later modified by removing the projections and by bending the outer edges of the knuckle bow into two rows of five projections each. Both models were issued with a cylindrical leather scabbard with a metal throat and cartridge belt hooks. It was a servicable design, the projections allowing for a murderous punch and the blade able to punch through even the thick issue greatcoat. Its only drawback was that it could only be used in a stabbing method, it couldn't be used in a slash.

The next model was the M1918 Mark I Trench Knife. This version had a conventional 6 3/4-inch long double-edged blade and a cast bronze handle having a "brass knuckle" configuration as well as a metal "skull-crusher" pommel. It was supplied with a sheet metal scabbard with two attachment prongs. This was the more popular of the two models with over 1,232,780 being produced. While it certainly allowed for stabbing attacks, the handle did not allow for a rapid change of hands. But it was still a fearsome-appearing weapon, and by after action reports, a deadly one.

[dragoon500ly]

Bolos or "I'm going to gut you like a fish!"

First introduced to the US Army following the Spanish-American War and the so-called pacification campaigns in the Philippines, the bolo is the forgotten weapon of WWI. In addition to being a useful tool for brush-cutting, the heavy bolo blade was a formidable weapon.

The Collins No.1005 was the first issue bolo and was purchased around 1900. It had a curved and heavy bright finished blade that was about 15 1/8-inches long. It came in three versions, one with a green horn handle, the second with a wooden handle and the final with a wooden handle, but with a steel ferrule between the handle and the blade. All three were issued with the same tooled leather scabbard with a wide belt loop.

The M1904 Hospital Corps Knife was another early bolot-type knife. It had a rounded tip, bright-finish 12-inch long blade. It had a wooden grip with finger grooves and a brass cap on the end. It was issued with a brown leather scabbard with a long leather belt loop, later replaced with cartridge belt loops. While never intended as a weapon, some did find their way into the hands of Doughboys who used them in trench raids.

The M1909 Bolo was the first, offical bolo. This had a 14-inch long, bright finish blade with a sharp tip and a slightly curved wooden handle without finger grooves. It was issued with a brown leather scabbard with a brass throat and a long belt loop.

The M1910 Bolo had a shorter 10 3/8-inch long blade and its wooden handle had grasping grooves. It was a lighter, more compact design that was well regarded. It was issued with a wooden scabbard covered with canvas and a leather tip as well as cartridge belt hooks.

The final bolo was the M1917, of a similar design to the M1910 but designed to speed up manufacturing and not as finely finished as the M1910. The M1917 was issued with a sheet metal scabbard and all metal parts of the scabbard and the bolo were parkerized.

[dragoon500ly]

Handguns or "Never bring a knife to a gun fight!"

While widely used for hundreds of years, the unique aspects of World War One resulted in a renewed emphasis handguns. Simply put, a rifle with a bayonet attached was just too unwieldy in the confines of a trench.

M1911 .45-caliber Pistol: In the early 1890s, the US military abandoned the famous M1873 Singe Action Army revolver in favor of a double-action revolver that was chambered for the much lighter .38-caliber oeLong Colt round. In the fighting in the Philippines, the .38 to be a miserable failure and the US Army searched for a more effective cartridge. Research confirmed that a cartridge of less than .44-caliber could not be counted on as a reliable oeman stopper. The various tests to determine the best self-loading military pistol design culminated with the adoption of the Colt oeU.S. Pistol, Caliber. 45, Model of 1911 chambered for the new .45 ACP (Automatic Colt Pistol) cartridge. The .45 ACP was a rimless round and featured a heavy 230 grain bullet moving at 830fps. The M1911 was designed by legendary firearms designer John M. Browning. It was recoil-operated and had a detachable box magazine holding 7-rounds. The weapon weighed 2.47 pounds and had a barrel length of 5-inches and an overall length of 8.62-inches. The M1911 was issued with either the M1912 Holster, which was a full-flap design with a swivel attachment with wire hooks. A modified version of this holster, the M1916, deleted the swivel. Also issued was a canvas-web magazine pouch that held two spare magazines, unlike later issue, this pouch had two oelift-the-dot fasteners. The M1911 was issued to officers and NCOs of the AEF as well as machine gunners, automatic riflemen and variety of combat and non-combat personnel. In addition to the 75,000 that were available prior to the war, 643, 755 were built during WWI. Alterations to the trigger, main spring housing, receiver and sights resulted in the M1911A1. This pistol remained in service until the mid-1980s, the last of the World War One weapons to do so.

The M1892-M1905 Revolver: Production of the M1911 never met the need for pistols, the shortage was so great the 25,000 of the M1895-M1902 revolvers were taken out of storage and issued to non-combatant units, both stateside and overseas. This pistol was issued with its original leather holster with a partial cover flap and a belt loop on the back. The holster was of the cavalry-influenced oebutt forward configuration. The pistol weighed in at 2 pounds, 2 ounces and had a 6-inch barrel and an overall length of 11.5-inches. All together, some 40,00 of the M1892, M1894, M1901, M1903 and M1905 revolvers saw service.

The M1917 Smith & Wesson and M1917 Colt Revolvers: As mentioned earlier, the shortage of M1911 pistols led the Army to acquire other pistols for issue to the troops. Both Smith & Wesson and Colt were approached to produce a double-action revolver, chambered for the .45ACP cartridge. Since the .45ACP cartridge is rimless, this meant that the cylinder extractors would not be able to eject the empty casings. An ingenious oehalf-moon shaped sheet metal loader allowed the rimless cartridges to be easily ejected and reloaded. Each clip held three .45ACP rounds. Smith & Wesson used the frame of its New Century revolver as the basis for their version. It weighed 2 -pounds and had a 5.5-inch long barrel and an overall length of 10 -inches. 166,732 were produced during the war. Colt used the frame of its New Service revolver for the basis of its version. It weighed 2.5 pounds, had a barrel length of 5.5-inches and an overall length of 10.8 inches. A total of 151,700 Colts were produced. Both revolvers were issued with a leather holster with a partial cover flap and a wide belt loop that allowed the pistol to be carried butt-forward. A canvas pouch that held three sets of half-moon clips was also issued.

Whether armed with the M1911 pistol or the M1917 revolver, the Doughboy carried a larger percentage of handguns into combat than the troops of any other nation. It has been estimated that as much as 60% of all combat troops were armed with a handgun, in addition to their rifle and bayonet. A infantry battalion TO&E for 1918 lists 322 pistols to be issued and a division was allotted 11,193 pistols.

[dragoon500ly]

Service Rifles "This is My Rife, This is My Gun..."

The weapon most intimately associated with the infantryman was his rifle. From the first day of basic training until he was required to turn in his equipment prior to his discharge from service, the rifle was his constant companion. In training and non-combatant situations, the rifle was often viewed as a burden to bear on forced marches or a magnet for dirt and grime when viewed during inspection by the all-seeing eyes of the first sergeant. In combat, however, the rifle was truly a matter of life and death to the infantryman.

M1903 Springfield: The standard service rifle at the time of the declaration of war was the oeU.S. Magazine Rifle, Caliber .30, Model of 1903 Better known as the oeSpringfield ~03 or oeSpringfield or simply the oe~O3oe. This was the replacement for the .30-40 Krag-Jorgenson bolt action magazine rifle of Spanish-American War fame. The Springfield used a modified Mauser action and was chambered for a .30-caliber rimless cartridge. The new cartridge was designated the oeModel of 1906 and was soon more widely referred to as the oe.30-06. The new round had a muzzle velocity of 2,800fps. The M1903 weighed in at 8.69 pounds and had an overall length of 43.5-inches and a barrel length of 24-inches. Most external metal parts were rust blued. It used a 5-round charger to reload and was fitted with a magazine cutoff that allowed for single rounds to be loaded and fired, while maintaining the 5-rounds in the magazine for emergencies. The stock and hand guard were made of quality black walnut. The metal butt plate had a hinged door that held an oiler and thong case and other cleaning implements. Sling swivels were fitted to the lower band and stock. The M1907 leather sling was the standard issue and served well into World War Two. The M1903 rifles rear sight was a folding leaf adjustable for elevation and windage. It was mounted forward of the bolt. A removable stamped metal cover was also used to product the front sight from damage.
The ~03 was made with a craftsmanship never before or since used for a military rifle. The rust bluing and quality walnut wood were equal to many fine sporting rifles. It was a superbly crafter and supremely accurate rifle. The ~03 successfully competed against the finest target rifles of other countries in Olympic and other prestigious shooting events. There is no doubt that the US military entered World War One with the finest bolt action military rifle of all time. And that was the problem.
In order to meet the production demands of the sudden expansion of the military, the Springfield had to be modified for easier mass production. The checking on the trigger and stock was eliminated; the metallurgy of the receiver was changed from the old case-hardened to a stronger double heat-treated type. Parkerizing replaced bluing. A second reinforcement bolt (AKA the lug or stock screw) was added to strengthen the stock to withstand the shock of firing rifle grenades. The new modified version was known as the M1903 Mark I rifle. All told, the US entered the war with 600,000 ~03s available, another 312, 878 were produced during the war with some 145,000 Mark I new production rifles built as well.

Two cartridge belts were issued for use: the M1910 cartridge belt was made of canvas and held ten pockets, each holding a single 5-round charger. The M1912 Cavalry Belt had a leather boot that held the ~03 across the troopers shoulder and held nine pockets, each with a charger and a pistol magazine pouch holding two M1911 magazines.

M1917 oeU.S. Enfield Rifle: As splendid as the Springfield was, the 600,000 that were available at the start of the war, were just barely enough to arm the small prewar force. And while production was stepped up, it quickly became apparent that another source of rifle production would be needed. At the time, three plants were busy building the oePattern 1914 rifle under British contract. This was a modified Mauser design re-chambered for the British .303 cartridge. During the three years of their contract, Winchester, Remington and the Midvale Steel & Ordnance Company produced 1,235,298 Pattern 1914 rifles by the end of the contract in July, 1917.
With three major factories, with a trained workforce, ready to produce weapons, the War Department was faced with the choice of converting the plants to build ~03 rifles; to adopt the Pattern 1914 rifle as is; or to re-chamber the P14 rifle for the U.S. .30-06 and then adopt the weapon to be issued concurrently with the M1903 rifle.
The need for minimum amount of disruption resulted in the P14 being chambered for the .30-06. Minor changes to the sights and rifling had to be made, but the change over to the round was fairly simple.
The M1917 rifle weighed 8.18 pounds and had a 26-inch barrel and was 46.3-inches in overall length. It had a 6-round capacity, but could use the standard 5-round charger used with the M1903 rifle. There was no magazine cutoff. The rear sight was a folding leaf adjustment for elevation, but not windage and was mounted on the rear of the receiver. The stock was black walnut with an oil finish, all external metal parts were rust blued.
One major difference in the two rifles lay in the oecrooked appearance of the bolt handle.. When operated, this crook allowed the user to use his middle finger to fire the weapon, allowing for a more rapid reload.
To be sure, there were soldiers who hated the M1917, it weighed a pound more than the Springfield and was three inches longer. While not as accurate as the M1903, the M1917s sights were superior for battle purposes. While not the preferred weapon, the M1917 was a sturdy, reliable and robust weapon. And in the end, the M1917 equipped 75% of the AEF.

[dragoon500ly]

Supplemental Rifles "In the event of combat, place your head..."

The M1898 Krag Rifle: This was the final variant of the Krag-Jorgensen rifle of the Spanish American War and was, at best, obsolescent. The Krag was 49.1-inches in overall length with a 30-inch barrel. It weighed 9.3 pounds. It was chambered for the U.S. .30-40 cartridge. This fired a 220 grain bullet at 2,000fps. The Krag also could not be loaded via a charger and its 5-round magazine had to be loaded, one round at a time. At the start of the war, some 160,000 M1898s were stored at various ordnance depots. In order to free up M1903 and M1917 rifles for the front, the Krag was issued to training camps. While most recruits would have preferred a Springfield or an Enfield, the Krag certainly beat training with a broomstick! As soon as enough M1903 and M1917 rifles were available, the M1898s were sent back into storage. Records indicate that some 2,000 Krag rifles made it to France but there is no evidence that they were used in combat. The Krag also served with various US Navy units in France. Not bad for an obsolescent rifle!

The Canadian Mark II Ross Rifle: When the War Department was scrambling for rifles to be used for training, the Canadian government advised that they had some 100,000 Mark I and II Ross rifles for sale. The Ross had recently been withdrawn from front-line service by the Canadians due to problems with operating its bolt in the mud-encrusted environment of the trenches. The Ross weighed 9 pounds, 14 ounces and was 50.25-inches overall in length with a 30.5-inch barrel. It was chambered for the British .303 cartridge. The U.S. purchased 20,000 Mark II Ross rifles, along with bayonets, scabbards slings and cleaning kits at the cost of $12.80 each. 4,629,470 rounds of .303 ammo was also purchased (at $20.00 per thousand) and a quantity of spare parts and ($7,814.78) as well as 2,000 rifle manuals. These were sold, at cost, to the states of New York (10,000 rifles), Massachusetts and Ohio (5,000 rifles each). The Ross was used for training purposes and never saw combat.

The M1891 Mosin-Nagant Rifle: This Russian design was 51.3-inches in overall length with a 31.6-inch barrel. It weighed 9.63 pounds and was chambered for the 7.62mm cartridge. When Russia entered the war, the quickly approached Remington and Westinghouse with a contract to produce M1891 rifles as quickly as possible. With the fall of the Czar, the contracts were cancelled, both companies had produced 1,500,000 M1891s of which 469,951 had been shipped to Russia. Since the companies had not been paid for most of the work and wanting to keep the two factories viable, the US purchased 280,000 M1891s at a cost of $20.00 each. Both companies were soon retooling for the production of the M1917 machine guns, the M1917 rifles and the M1910 military shotguns. They were used as training rifles and many equipped the US troops sent to North Russia and were later turned over to the White Russians.

The French Lebel and Berthier Rifles: The M1886 Lebel Rifle weighed 9.75 pounds and was 51.4-inches overall in length, with a barrel length of 31.5-inches. It was chambered for the 8mm and featured a 8-round tubular magazine under the barrel. The M1907 Berthier Rifle was a modification of the Lebel but fitted with a one piece stock and a Mannlicher-inspired box magazine. It weighed 8.38 pounds, had an overall length of 51.4-inches long with a 31.4-inch barrel. The rimmed 8mm round prevented a standard charger from being used and the Berthier used a 3-round clip. It was later modified to hold 5-rounds, but many 3-round versions served until the end of the war. Both rifles were considered to be very inaccurate and clumsy to handle. In US service, the Lebel's claim to fame: this was the Rifle that Rick O'Connell used in the opening scenes of The Mummy.

The British Short Magazine Lee-Enfield Rifle, No.1 Mark III: Better known as the SMLE this was the standard service rifle of the British military. It weighed 8.62 pounds, was 44.5-inches long with a barrel length of 25.2-inches. It used a 10-round magazine. Initially, the British felt that the SMLE was inferior to the Mauser and there were plans to replace it with a Mauser design. As subsequent events proved, the SMLE was a reliable and effective rifle that served until the 1950s. While issued to the US Army for training in France, several US regiments were attached to British divisions and were armed with the SMLE; while derided as being heavier and clumsier than the M1903, the SMLE was respected.

[Targan]

Good Lord dragoon500ly! All the info in this thread and the "OT Navies in WWII" thread, are you writing this all from memory, or are you posting excerpts of material you've written before, or are you sourcing it from somewhere Because if it is coming straight from your memory you are not only an excellent writer but also some kind of savant!

[dragoon500ly]

Good Lord dragoon500ly! All the info in this thread and the "OT Navies in WWII" thread, are you writing this all from memory, or are you posting excerpts of material you've written before, or are you sourcing it from somewhere Because if it is coming straight from your memory you are not only an excellent writer but also some kind of savant!

The short from is "Yes", a lot of this is from memory, the exact details such as weights and measurements comes from various small arms magazines/books; Some of the details on furnishings comes simply from me getting off my butt and opening my gun safe. I collect military firearms as a hobby. My grand-father collected a lot of US military weapons and left me over 60 rifles and 40 pistols of various makes and models. My dad added another 40 some odd rifles and I've carried on the family addiction.

I don't pretend to be an expert like Kevin Dockery or Bruce Canfield, but I do enjoy collecting, restoring and firing these classic military weapons.

And yes, I've published articles in Armor Journal and the Infantry Journal, even had one published in American Rifleman.

And if I am a savant...then its an idiot savant !!!

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Sniper Rifles oeOne Shot, One Kill!

Rifles fitted with telescopic sights were used long before The Great War. During the American Civil War, some very amazing feats were reported using the target rifles of the day. But these were civilian production weapons and were never officially adopted.

The very first oeofficial sharpshooter rifle were three M1892 Krag which were fitted with telescopes manufactured by the Cataract Tool & Optical Company. These three rifles were the first in the US Armys tradition of sniping. Further development was delayed as the Krag was going to be replaced by a new rifle.

Instead of discussing the M1903 and M1917 rifles, I will be discussing the optical sights that were used.

Soon after the M190s entered service, the Small Arms Firing Regulations of 1904 and 1906 stated that oeto properly equip a special class of shots who shall not only be designated as expert, but, who, in action shall be employed as such, the telescopic sight is adopted, there was just one problem with this, there were no telescopic sights in service.

The first real sight was the Warner & Swasey Musket Sights, Model of 1908. This was a prismatic design that allowed for a wide field of view for the high power (6X) of the scope. It was fastened to the M1903 by a dovetail base fastened to the left side of the receiver. A spring-loaded plunger held the scope and allowed it to be easily removed from the rifle. This placement allowed the rifle to be loaded and fired in the normal manner as well as allowing the iron sights to be used. The only alterations to the standard rifle was the removal of a small amount of wood from the left side of the receiver and the attachment of the receiver base. It was made from steel and brass and weighed a hefty 2 -pounds. Two brass plates containing firing and sight adjustment data were mounted on the scope. The sight had a cross hair reticle and three stadia lines for estimating range. The short eye relief of the sight required a rubber eyepiece to properly position and protect the shooters eye. At first the sights were stamped with a serial number that matched the rifle it was intended for, but this practice was soon discontinued. The M1908 was carried in a leather carrying case with cartridge belt hooks and a shoulder strap. In spite of its initial impression, the M1908 was not a good design. Among the problems was that its prismatic design meant that any flecks of paint or dust that found their way inside the scope were magnified six times in the sight picture. The short eye relief, rubber eyepiece and awkward shooting posture did not make for good marksmanship. Still, some 2,075 were purchased.

The next design was the Telescopic Musket Sight, Model of 1913. The main difference between this one and the M1908 was the lowering of the power to 5.2X to improve light-gathering characteristics. The outside configuration were modified but everything else was identical to the M1908...right along with the same problems. Some 5,000 were purchased.

The Warner & Swasey musket sights were the most common scope issued, but by no means were they the only ones issued. The Winchester A5 scope was introduced in 1910 and was very popular on the civilian market. The USMC acquired several samples and fitted them to M1903 rifles.

The A5s front scope mount was attached to the barrel, which required that a hole be routed in the hand guard in order to provide the necessary clearance. The rear mount was screwed directly to the receiver. Since the modifications were done by marine armorers at various facilities (basically on a individual basis), there is quite a bit of variance from one rifle to the next. The A5 was a long steel tube and provided 2X power with a narrow field of view. It could be dismounted, in which case it was carried in a leather carrying with a shoulder strap. The exact numbers of A5s purchased by the Marine Corps is not known with any certainly, many appeared to have been purchased with unit funds and hence there is little or no paper trail. Best estimates place the number at roughly 1,000. There is very little mention of Marine use of the A5s in France. Army Ordnance records do show that 400 were purchased prior to the Armistice, but again, their use is not widely known.
Although superior to the Warner & Swasey sights, the Winchester A5 sight is basically a civilian sight and was considered to be too fragile to be an effective military sniper telescope.
The M1903 sniping variants coupled the superb accuracy of the ~03 with a telescopic sight. There are many reports of AEF snipers taking up positions in no mans land and harassing the Germans to great effect.

While the M1903 served as the primary sniping platform, the M1917 was also selected for modifications. The Model of 1918 Sniper Rifle combined the Enfield with a new Telescopic Rifle Sight, Model of 1918. This was a 2.6X power scope and was considered to be superior to both the Warner & Swasey and Winchester sights. Sadly, out of a contract for 57,742, only 189 were built before the contract was canceled in January, 1919. None ever saw combat.

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The Trench Periscope Rifle oeWhat the *ell is that!

The mere act of raising your head above the parapet of a World War One trench could often be your last act on earth. The various militaries were well aware of this threat and sought various means to reduce this threat. On of the most promising was a device that allowed the standard service to be fired above a parapet while the rifleman was concealed below.

When the US entered the war, two Ohio rifle enthusiasts; James Cameron and Lawrence Yaggi, developed an experimental concept that consisted of a M1903 rifle (fitted with a 25-round extension magazine), clamped to a metal framework that would rest on the shoulder and hold the weapon above the shooters head. Extension levers allowed the shooter to manipulate the bolt and trigger and the rifle was sighted via a periscope attached to the framework. Now this idea was not unique, several service rifles were modified to allow the user to fire over the parapet, but the Cameron-Yaggi device allowed the firer to use a periscope and fire at what he saw. The entire mount was surprisingly accurate, during one test, ten rounds were fired at a 200 yard target, with a total spread of 1.3-inches. The users also reported that the recoil oegave less kick than a normal service rifle. The whole framework, rifle and all, just seemed to rock back a little. Another advantage of the Cameron-Yaggi was that the periscope would rock away from the shooters eye upon firing, rather than back with a rifle-mounted periscope.
When put together, the Cameron-Yaggi added 6 pounds to the weight of a
~03, and it was certainly more cumbersome than a standard service rifle, but it was never intended to be carried a great distance and was intended for the defense of a trench. This, perhaps, was its greatest drawback. You see, the Cameron-Yaggi was never purchased, nor was it formally rejected by the Ordnance Department (this hints that the military saw its potential but also had unreported qualms about the device as well). Total production was perhaps a dozen or so, all hand made and thus varying to some degree.
Still, it was a fascinating idea.

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Miscellaneous Rifles oeThe Army never bought that!

One of the oddities of The Great War is that the Army purchased civilian firearms and issued them to troops. This was due, for the most part, to the shortfall in production of service rifles and the need to insure that all available service rifles went to the fighting front. This left those service members in the states with a problemthey didnt have any firearms with which to perform their duties. The government purchased 1,800 Winchester Model 1894 rifles in caliber .30-30 with which to arm Signal Corps troops serving in the Pacific Northwest. The duties of these troops were to guard the spruce trees of the region. Spruce was the preferred wood to build aircraft during the time and was thus a vital war material. The area experienced labor trouble in 1916-1918 and the Signal Corps troops had the mission of insuring that there were no problems with the delivery of spruce. The contract to buy the M1894 rifles is the only know written document confirming the purchase of lever-action firearms. However, there are numerous photos of soldiers carrying a variety of civilian bolt-action and lever-action rifles and carbines, since these were official photos (one photo shows a formation of soldiers armed with three different types of civilian rifles), this hints that the use of civilian firearms was much more widespread than the written record indicates.

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The Penderson Device oeThe Great What If

The Penderson Device was designed as a oeTop Secret infantry weapon and was intended to play a key role in the Grand Offensive of 1919. However, the end of the war prevented the issue of the weapon and it never saw combat.

The Penderson was designed to address two problems shared by all military service rifles of the era; the bolt action mechanism was slow to operate and the rifle cartridges were overly powerful for some combat applications. In other words, it was not always necessary for an infantryman to have a full-power cartridge and a self-loading or semiautomatic rifle was extremely desirable. John Penderson came up with an imaginative and innovative way to solve these two problems.

Penderson worked on his device until the summer of 1917 when he contacted the Ordnance Department to request a secret demonstration of his device. Such was his reputation that his request was granted, even though the ordnance people had no idea at to what his invention was. On October 8, 1917, the Chief of Ordnance, General William Crozier, along with a select group of officers and a few congressmen (all sworn to secrecy) met at the Congress Heights rifle range in Washington D.C. General Croziers own words describe what happened next

oeMr. Penderson started his demonstration by firing the Springfield rifle which he brought with him. After firing a few shots in the ordinary way, he suddenly jerked the bolt out of the rifle and dropped it into a pouch which he had with him, and from a long scabbard which was on his belt he produced a mysterious looking piece of mechanism which he quickly slid into the rifle in place of the bolt, locking the dive to the rifle by turning a catch provided for the purpose. Then he snapped into place a long black magazine containing forty small pistol size cartridges whose bullets were, however, of the right diameter to fit the barrel of the rifle. All this was done in an instant and in another instant Mr. Penderson was pulling the trigger of the rifle time after time as fast as he could work his finger and each time he pulled the trigger the rifle fired a shot, threw out the empty cartridge and reloaded itself.

The assembled onlookers were amazed by Pendersons demonstration and the device was eagerly examined at length afterwards. It is known as an oeautomatic bolt (even though it is only capable of semiautomatic fire and essentially operates in the same manner as a oeblow back pistol. The barrel of the device was rifled and was the same configuration of a .30-06 cartridge case. This enabled it to fit into the ~03s chamber and place the bullet in close proximity to the rifling of the standard ~03 barrel. It was locked in place by means of the ~03s magazine cut-off. A small projection on the rifles trigger moved forward with each pull to trip the devices firing mechanism. Each time the rifles trigger was pulled, the device fired.

The device was fitted with a 40-round magazine that attached to the right side of the device at a 45 degree angle. It was held in place by two spring-loaded oefingers. This position allowed the rifle to be sighted in the normal manner. Fired cartridge cases were ejected through a hole milled into the left side of the receiver.

The round itself was based on the Colt .32 ACP pistol cartridge with the bullet modified to fit a .30-caliber weapon. When fired it had a muzzle velocity of 1,300fps.

The outfit of the Penderson could be attached to the standard cartridge belt. It consisted of a canvas pouch to carry the Springfields bolt; a metal scabbard that held the Penderson Device when it was not in use; and two magazine pouches (each holding five magazines). The device itself weighed 2 pounds, 2 ounces. A loaded magazine weighed a pound.

To say that the Penderson Device astounded the witnesses at its first demonstration is to understate the effect. It was felt by all present that the device would be an enormous asset for the US Army in both offensive and defensive warfare. The War Department was so impressed with the device, that an officer was sent to France to deliver an example of the weapon to General Pershing, and the device was quickly classified TOP SECRET.

General Pershing convened a board on December 9,1917 that consisted of four high-ranking officers who tested the device for its accuracy, penetration, rapidity of fire and its endurance. If anything, this board was even more excited about the device than the War Department. A confidential memo from General Pershing stated:

oeBoard recommends adoption of the Penderson attachment for rifle and the initial purchase of 100,000 of same. Great secrecy urged in connection with this device. Initial supply of ammunition 5,000 rounds per gun with a daily supply of 100 rounds per gun. Strongly approve of device and believe it will materially increase efficiency of our infantry.

A follow up memo from Pershing stated that:

oeDesire 25,000 Pederson attachments be held in reserve. Replacements 50% per year on devices and 200% on magazines. Request 40 magazine be shipped with each device. When will shipments be made

In order to maintain the desired secrecy, the Penderson Device was officially adopted with a misleading name, the Automatic Pistol, Caliber .30, Model of 1918. Needless to say, the War Department was criticized for adopting a new pistol in such a small caliber, when the M1911 was performing so well!

With the large number of M1917 rifles in service the Penderson was modified. The Mark I device was intended for the M1903 and the Mark II for the M1917 rifles. Unfortunately, the end of the war meant that only a handful of Penderson Mark IIs were ever built. By the time the contract was canceled in March of 1919, 65,000 Penderson Mark Is were built along with 1,600,000 magazines and a bit over 65,000,000 cartridges.

After the war, the War Department couldnt decide what to do with the Penderson device. All of the post war tests agreed that it would unlikely to be used in future wars, citing the low power of the cartridge, the added weight of the device and its gear and the cumbersome changing back and forth of the device and the bolt. With no future use, the government made the decision in April of 1931, to destroy all devices, magazines and ammunition in order to save the cost of further storage. Most of the devices were scrapped and only a handful were saved for museums and reference collections.

So what would have been the impact of the Penderson Device. To be sure it would have surprised the Germans and have had a real impact in the maneuver warfare that the 1919 Offensive was designed to create. Instead, the Penderson Device is a nothing more than a footnote in historyBut What If