Operational Name for the Summer Offensive

[Targan]

Well when you put it that way, fair enough. We are in agreement.

[natehale1971]

Each military would have it's own code name for the offensive. This is also a good way of keeping the other guy on a backfoot.

If 4 or 5 militaries are all preparing for operation "morning glory" then the other side's intell uits can make a pretty good guess that something big and unified is going on. If 4 seperate peration names are being used then the other guy has to consider if it's one big op or several smaller, local ones.

The way I'd write it is to give the offensive a codename for each military taking part. Everyone involved knows what that codename refers to.

Do you mean something like this

US Armed Forces would use a term like Black Dragon
British Armed Forces would use a term like Y Ddraig Goch (Welsh: Red Dragon)
German Armed Forces would use a term like Drachemrder (Dragon Killer)

Or do you mean, operational names that are totally unrelated

[Legbreaker]

The Summer Offensive is a pet project of mine and something I'm intimately familiar with. I've spent many years on it and I can tell you with absolute certainty that Reset had nothing to do with the planning of the offensive.
It is unfortunately a common mistake made by some who have misread the material in Free City of Krakow which clearly states "Under cover of this offensive, the Special Forces B Team code-named Strike Zulu had moved off toward the city of Lodz on a mission of its own behind enemy lines. Its movement was masked by the fury of the 5th Divisions attack."
The same book states in the same paragraph "The final offensive in Poland was launched by the 3rd German Army and the US 11th Corps in the spring of 2000, an attack which was expected to clear the Baltic coast as far as the mouth of the Wisla river of enemy forces."

To me that means the aim of the whole offensive was to seize and hold the valuable Baltic coastline, and open up a sea route to move supplies and reinforcements rapidly eastward in preparation for further operations. This could have been a southward movement in an effort to encircle Pact forces on the German-Poland border, or at the very least place them under serious pressure to withdraw or risk being cut off and eliminated.

Meanwhile, Pact commanders had amassed a sizeable supply of fuel for an offensive of their own with undetermined goals. My guess is they intended to do something similar to Nato (drive deep and cut off) but were beaten to the punch.

Most of the Pact strength was well behind the lines and so Nato commanders felt confident in their ability to brush aside the weak and battle worn Polish units before them. However, they did not, and could not reckon on such a strong and powerful counterpunch which not only destroyed the US 5th ID but also drove the 3rd German Corp back to their starting positions and cut off the remainder of US XI Corp.

The salvage of a little piece of unproven tech means nothing in light of the overall picture. Hell, even compared to just what the 5th ID was doing, one small B team and their mission means almost nothing.

[simonmark6]

Quote from "The Free City of Krakow"

The operation was code-named Reset, and
Strike Zulu was hurriedly organized to coincide with the big offensive.
In some circles, the offensive was considered to be a
diversion for Operation Reset.

This suggests that in reality, Strike Zulu was tacked on to the operation rather than being the reason for the operation. As to the importance of Reset to the US Authorities, we'll never know though it is interesting to think that they sent a B Team with a few trucks and Hum Vees which were easily wiped out by a bunch of marauders to pick up Reset rather than the Armoured Cavalry Company under Captain (Major) Dicks which were sent on the off chance that they could find the Black Madonna, an artifact that most thought to be destroyed might suggest that the mission wasn't important enough to risk a whole offensive to cover it.

The sort of rewards that the PCs are likely to get for handing in the papers are also paltry if the designer's considered it so important, a set of tools and fifteen units of anti biotics isn't what I'd hope for when turning in a major war-winning discovery even if the DIA were really in dire straits in Krakow.

The major issue of course is the GDW adventure structure which often focused around "the last" of something in order to give the PCs a feeling that they were in the middle of the action in their world.

As for the Soviet counter attack being specifically to defend Reset, I'm doubtful of that, canon tells us that it took the Ploesti oilfields several months to produce the fuel for the Soviet Divisions. If this was done specifically to protect Reset it would be logical that with a few months' foreknowledge of the attack, they'd have simply moved the Reset papers further away from the enemy.

The counter attack was bad luck, the Soviets had been preparing their own attack and were thus ideally placed to foil the 5th's attack, they were not there to protect Reset.

The quote mentions that some circles considered that the operation was a cover for the Reset mission but the previous sentence makes it clear that this was not the case.

That said, in your game, you can do exactly what you want and you can make whatever assumptions you care to.

In my opinion, however, whilst I feel that the Reset Papers are more than a footnote, they were obviously not the main reason for the Summer Offensive which was to gain as strong a position as possible for the NATO side of the bargaining table. The attack aimed to force the front line back to the Wisla and thus make the German Border safer. Given this objective the recovery of the Black Madonna becomes more important as it could be used to rally pro-NATO forces in Poland and create a friendly buffer state between the Germans and the Soviets.

[natehale1971]

Legbreaker, you are putting words in my mouth... and i find it offensive.

I never said that the Summer offensive was ONLY done for Reset. I said that they used the offensive for cover. Something they said in the damn books was what was being done.

One small b-team being a mere footnote that is completely without anyone needing to notice it.. totally goes against what history has shown time and time again. Those kinds of teams are able to go out and do crucial missions as a scapel and not as a chainsaw or machete. They get their mission done, and allow bigger things to be carried out.

you jumped on me accusing me of saying something I DID NOT SAY.

i started this thread asking about the Operational Name or names for the Summer Offensive, and i said that we know that Reset used the offensive as cover for it's operation.

My statement that the full force of the Soviets hitting the area inmass being to find and get back Reset after it was stolen would actually be possible. beause reset would be a major strategic resource for rebuilding after the fighting finally ends. Who ever had reset would have a massive advantage over those who did not have it.

History has shown that information is power. And that the acquisition and management of information can make the weakest of field armies superior to the strongiest of field armies that has a piss poor intelligence and information network! How do you think the American revolutionaries defeated the strongest army of it's time

They call it Hybird Warfare now. The use of insurgency troops with a core of regular Army units, that are assisted by an extensive network of intelligence assets.

Reset would give anyone who got their hands on it, a major leg up when the war was over... because all that data that was stored on EMP damaged computer hard drives could be accessed and used.

Being able to do that would be a hell of a lot more than just a mere footnote in history.

I hated the operational name for RESET. it's one of the reasons i broght it up. And YOU jumped to ASSUMPTION that I said that the Summer Offensive was only done to give cover for RESET, when I stated "We know that the Summer Offensive was to provide cover for the heaviliy classified Operation Reset" i NO WHERE stated that it was the ONLY reason for the summer offensive.

But that RESET USED the summer offensive as cover to accomplish their goals. AND GUESS WHAT... the damn books said that.

[natehale1971]

In my opinion, however, whilst I feel that the Reset Papers are more than a footnote, they were obviously not the main reason for the Summer Offensive which was to gain as strong a position as possible for the NATO side of the bargaining table. The attack aimed to force the front line back to the Wisla and thus make the German Border safer. Given this objective the recovery of the Black Madonna becomes more important as it could be used to rally pro-NATO forces in Poland and create a friendly buffer state between the Germans and the Soviets.

Why are people not reading what I am actually fucking typing

I NEVER SAID THAT RESET WAS THE ONLY REASON for the damn Offensive. For either side of the damn fight.

I am saying that The Soviets would want to get RESET back, and that would be one of the reasons why the Soviets would be sending so damn many troopers into the region searching for it. They had sent in a lot more forces into the area than would have been needed for mopping up the remains of 5ID. Hell... with what they sent in, with petrol fueling their vehicles (and logically the fact they have petrol they should have avgas as well, and they should have been able to put aircraft into operation as well)...

Once the soviets know that RESET had been comprimised they'd move assets into the area in hopes of getting it back.

I didn't say (or mean to say) that the ONLY reason for the clusterfuck of the Summer Offensive was over RESET. But that RESET having been stolen would have effected the movement of Soviet and Polish troops to retrieve it. And that the PCs would have a way to capture and smuggle RESET out of the area and complete the mission that Zulu had tried to carry out.

Since people are putting words in my mouth. I think I should make the statement that in my campaign, RESET was something that USEUCOM and our NATO allies wanted to get their hands on or destroy at any cost. JUST SO THAT THE SOVIETS WOULD NOT HAVE IT! If they could get their hands on the plans or one of the prototypes they'd be happy, because it would allow them to improve the same kind of device that was already being developed back home.

The Summer Offensive WAS NOT launched as a cover for RESET, but was USED AS cover for RESET. Those are TWO ENTIRELY DIFFERENT THINGS.

I said that the Soviets AFTER they learned RESET was missing, they dedicated assets to find it. Because face it... they wouldn't dedicate all those assets just to wipe out the stragglers of the 5ID. they have second line troops who not only could easily do that, but that's what their operatioal mission was all about.

If you don't like this explaination for all the soviet forces enountered during the Polish Campaign, that's fine. as the saying goes "YOUR MILAGE MY VARY"... but that's how we explained it. They were searching everywhere to get RESET back. and while doing that, they could wipeout the remains of 5ID and/or bring deserters (Polish and Soviet) back under their control, all the better.

That's called killing two or more birds with a single stone... or more accurately described as bird hunting with a shotcun loaded with buckshot. Beause if you pull the trigger just right you kill alot more than just one bird as it's flying by.

[simonmark6]

I'm sorry Nate, but your phrasing strongly suggested that you considered that the offensive was planned in order to act as cover for the recovery of the Reset Papers. Whilst your phrasing didn't exclude any other interpretation, it was the way that I and several others read it and therefore accusing Leg of putting words in your mouth and then taking offense at it is a rather strong reaction to his post.

We all phrase things imprecisely at some points and pointing out to Leg that that was the case would have been all you needed to do rather than accusing him of character assassination. In effect, if you do not think that the Summer Offensive was specifically launched in order to cover for Operation Reset then you are agreeing with Leg. Reset was a sideshow, an important one in your take of canon, a lesser one in Leg's but fundamentally you are agreeing with each other.

[natehale1971]

I'm sorry Nate, but your phrasing strongly suggested that you considered that the offensive was planned in order to act as cover for the recovery of the Reset Papers. Whilst your phrasing didn't exclude any other interpretation, it was the way that I and several others read it and therefore accusing Leg of putting words in your mouth and then taking offense at it is a rather strong reaction to his post.

We all phrase things imprecisely at some points and pointing out to Leg that that was the case would have been all you needed to do rather than accusing him of character assassination. In effect, if you do not think that the Summer Offensive was specifically launched in order to cover for Operation Reset then you are agreeing with Leg. Reset was a sideshow, an important one in your take of canon, a lesser one in Leg's but fundamentally you are agreeing with each other.

That was not what I was saying. I stated that the offensive was used by RESET as a cover. Because that's actually in the books. And he comes out acting like the total and absolute authority of all things canon in T2k. He came right out of the gate jumping to a conclusion. And those who thought that was what i was saying didn't read what I was trying to explain to Leg who didn't want to listen to what i was saying to begin with.

I NEVER stated that the Summer Offensive was carried out as some kind of conspiracy to provide cover for RESET. I said that Operation RESET had used the Offensive as cover so that they could be successful. I brought up the fact that the soviets throwing som many assets into the area COULD HAVE BEEN a result of them trying to get RESET back.

I did say that naming Operatin RESET after the RESET device was stupid as hell, and that they should have given it a name that would have been able to be hidden amoung all the other Operations that were being carried out during the Summer Offensive. To hide the Operation among all the others.

As i described it, hiding a tree in a forest. So that it wouldn't stand out and draw attention to itself during radio communications.

[simonmark6]

That might not have been what you were saying but that is how it was interpreted by several members of the forum, you have now corrected that assumption and therefore there is no more need for you to defend yourself against Leg. Leg has no issue with the fact that the powers that be decided to let the Operation Reset team use the pre-planned offensive as cover.

The major issue here is that you appear to have taken umbrage with Leg's interpretation of your words. I am happy to accept that we mis-interpreted your intentions and you have corrected that mis-interpretation.

[natehale1971]

That might not have been what you were saying but that is how it was interpreted by several members of the forum, you have now corrected that assumption and therefore there is no more need for you to defend yourself against Leg. Leg has no issue with the fact that the powers that be decided to let the Operation Reset team use the pre-planned offensive as cover.

The major issue here is that you appear to have taken umbrage with Leg's interpretation of your words. I am happy to accept that we mis-interpreted your intentions and you have corrected that mis-interpretation.

You want to know what I took the most umbrage with, after having him put words in my mouth How about his acting like he's the ultimate authority on anything that has to do with the Cannon of Twilight 2000. Because that is exactly how he came across when he ASSUMED what i was saying. He jumped in with both feet making assumptions. He didn't ask what do you mean, he jumped right into the wrong conclusion of what I was saying.

If I had done something like that, i'd expect someone i'd have offended by making an ass of them and me to except an apoligy for jumping off the damn handle. NOT come out acting like I'm the only one who knows what is or isn't the correct answer. THAT is why i'm offended by how he has acted.

[Targan]

Point taken Nate. Lets all just chill out a little and move on from here.

[natehale1971]

Point taken Nate. Lets all just chill out a little and move on from here.

will do.

[95th Rifleman]

Do you mean something like this

US Armed Forces would use a term like Black Dragon
British Armed Forces would use a term like Y Ddraig Goch (Welsh: Red Dragon)
German Armed Forces would use a term like Drachemrder (Dragon Killer)

Or do you mean, operational names that are totally unrelated

the British would not use a welsh name, too damned hard to pronounce for a start. Here's my take on it.

American: Black Dragon
British: Saint George (or simply Operation George)
German: Fafnir

These seem to be the logical names for the operation.

[natehale1971]

the British would not use a welsh name, too damned hard to pronounce for a start. Here's my take on it.

American: Black Dragon
British: Saint George (or simply Operation George)
German: Fafnir

These seem to be the logical names for the operation.

That works for me...

With each following wave having an operational name so that everyone can tell what stage of the overall operation is occuring, and what contengency plans are being enacted. By having more than one set of Operational plans they'd have a great deal of operational flexibility. kind of like the choose your own adventure books with everyone having playbooks filled with things like "If the enemy responds this way, do this" type of operational planning. It'd allow for commanders to know the contingency plans on how to respond to things. Such as one Corps hearing that their counterparts have taken alot more resistance than they expected, or have been pushed back... they'd have plans for how to protect their flank, while being able to either press their advantage in a way that wouldn't leave them with their bare backsides hanging out in the wind... or a plan that woud allow them to hold what they have taken while providing support for their counterparts who need it.

[James Langham]

Regarding Reset, I put this into my history (puts on Kevlar and ducks):

2012
Publication of the book oeLies and Deceits: The secret history of the war in the United States. It's author Morgan Pattison argues that many irrational events have a rational explanation. The US Government denies the stories in the book but many gain public acceptance as evidence is hard come by. When Lt Col Bernard McGough late of the 5th Mechanised Division claims that as per Pattison the unit was sacrificed to cover a secret mission his claims are given credence. Gradually these claims become more mainstream despite government denials until by 2018 the story will start to appear in mainstream histories as a possibility. No evidence of this however has ever been found.

That gives the possibility of both being right.

While I really like the variations on a theme name (especially Y Ddraig Goch but then again I am Welsh), experience has shown that us British will have a completely unrelated name (e.g. Iraq = Telic, Afghanistan = Herric, Gulf = Granby). We also seem to have used a few two word names in Afghanistan (e.g. Panther's Claw) but I think those have been translations of a single Afghan word.

Can anyone cast any light on German and Pact naming conventions