Vehicles and EMPs?

[Mohoender]

Ok, while jocking about ethanol, I realized that I forgot to ask something. I have little knowledge in mechanics and don't know if you can take out the electronic of a vehicle and make it work again.

I assume that EMP would have had devastating effects on most vehicles (as per cannon). Is there a way to make them start again without electronics and does any of you know about this I assume that this is the case for, lets say, the HMMWV.

Side question, what about fly by wire aircrafts

[jester]

A old fashioned vehicle that uses a mechanical fuel pump and a carbereuator sure.

For computer controlled fuel injected models with electrical fuel pumps, survos and relays more problematic.

As for fly by wire, forget it! They would have to have been hardened from construction, or maybe grounded or put in a shelter to protect them.

Could a civilian aircraft like a Cesna I think so, at least an older model, just forget about radios or any fancy avionics.

Oh, and electric starters as the solenoid would probably be fried. So, I am thinking you would have to pop start the vehicles, which means a standard or manual transmission instead of an automatic.

[chico20854]

I would be quite suprised if military vehicles, especially tactical aircraft, were not EMP hardened. For example, a fly-by-wire F-16, would reasonably be expected to be EMP hardened, given its tactical nuclear delivery role. The opposite, that it wouldn't be EMP-hardened, makes no sense.

[Marc]

It seems to me that the effect of EMP in the Twilight world is somehow excessive in comparison with the dimension of the nuclear exchange described in the rulebook. I think that the damage described in the book is quite optimistic compared with the possible reality, with people still living near impact points (like in Warsaw), with rural communities able to produce food, etc... But the EMP's seems to have an excessive efficiency to fry everything able to process a single bit.

[Grimace]

From what I know from my buddies in the Marines, the Marine fighter jocks had to practice "dead stick" runs in case they lost their avionics and electric assisted controls. Now, since they were practicing for such instances, I think the military craft might be shielded a bit, but I don't think it's quite the "all impressive prevents any problems" sort of shielding. I think it might help on the outer fringes of the EMP burst or something, but anything caught well within the EMP burst is probably going to have some serious problems working.

For civilian stuff, you'd definitely have to be dealing with older vehicles and aircraft. Anything newer...new cars with their little "brain boxes" and chips, and new aircraft (as was mentioned with electric fuel injection) would have some serious problems. Unless a crafty mechanic can figure out how to bypass that stuff, the vehicles would be pretty much useless. Modern cars won't let themselves be started without their chips working.

[Mohoender]

It seems to me that the effect of EMP in the Twilight world is somehow excessive in comparison with the dimension of the nuclear exchange described in the rulebook. I think that the damage described in the book is quite optimistic compared with the possible reality, with people still living near impact points (like in Warsaw), with rural communities able to produce food, etc... But the EMP's seems to have an excessive efficiency to fry everything able to process a single bit.

Yes and no I think. We brought up an issue back in RPG host where we had been speaking of Chernobyl nowadays. It appears that despite contamination the area is far from being a barren desert (Human alone is away but why risking your life when there is no need for it). here are some articles about it.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/04/0426_060426_chernobyl.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4923342.stm

http://news.mongabay.com/2005/0810-Chernobyl.html

Of course, if you read it carefully things are far from ideal and the point is contested. I'm convinced that some are way too positive but i wouldn't be surprised if other were way too negative. I put you a counter article here.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6946210.stm

I would expect these to remain an issue for some times and I bet that the truth lies somewhere in a middleground. Nevertheless, in the case of T2K where people are desperate, with little mean to leave, having people living quite near a burst area might not be that silly. That has been a large issue about T2K but, in fact, their view might not be that bad (in my opinion).

about EMPs nobody really knows I think and, in term of game play, their point is a good one. For my part, setting the game at a slightly later period, I have less powerful nuclear burst as MIRV are about 550kt in average (except for a handfull of 20Mt burst over the US by SS-18 Satan) and everything wasn't fried (90% was) as many elements were out of line when the attack occurs. For exemple, if you take the case of France, a number of nuclear power plants are off line (as far as I know) and held in reserve, in case of emergency. The months long exchange and most people being ignorant about EMPs would have strong effects, nevertheless.

For my part, I wouldn't start my car for some times and the second vehicle of the familly is old enough so it has no electronics (from a rough estimation, at least 20% of the vehicles in the village would still be running, by the way. Many people have older ones in storage). I would lose 80% of my computers but one will remain in working order (actually 2 as they are older models in storage) and we will retain a working fridge (older model also). Getting electricity will be more of a problem but water will be fine as we have a well in our cave . Hopefully my cousin is now living 100 miles away and the guy is a specialist in individual electric power plant with a 20 years experience in African and third world countries. Moreover, as I have plenty of wind and a full load of electricians, engineers (including one who was making nuclear power plant)... readily available in the familly, I would plan for a wind power plant. Another advantage of my area is that they are plenty of horses around woods everywhere, lots of water and good farm lands. Marauders and general unrest will be much more of a problem. The only weapons that I have are matchets, swords and crossbow but expect my mother to hide some submachinegun somewhere (+ at least 2 or 3 handguns with full load of ammunitions). As I live in a countryside, you can also bet that several people still hold some stocks from WWII (I have heard of huge ones but these remain rumors to these days). Strangely, when the government issued a law (10 years ago) asking people to bring what firearms they had, only 12 gauge hunting rifle showed up. Where are the Mausers, Sten, MP-40 and MG-42 all gone

[Marc]

EMP's. The quick way to the 19th century

Bona nit Mohoender!

Ok! You have convinced me. I will cross the Pirinees at the first sign of EMP.
I have been reading a little about the EMP's since your post and I think you have reason. The Twilight devastating EMP effect over all the electronic parts seems completely justified. Rumors says that Russians have an specific unit dedicated to it. Ssssssshhhhtttt.... But I see a weak point in the last half of your post. The EMP generates an inductive current in all electrical and electronic circuits. This current induced in the conductor materials implies fatal consequences for the electronic parts, which are specifically designed to work with very low voltages and currents. But this current is induced no matter if the component is online or offline. Basically, the conductors would be working as an antenna, their electrons in phase with the wave of the electronic pulse, which is, basically, an electromagnetic wave of great power and short duration. So, your old computers in storage will be fried anyway, I think.
And it seems that shielding a component against an EMP is not an easy matter. You must close the the component in a metallic enclosure with an outstanding ground wire (not sure about this concept in English). Because the generated wave can cause a differential of voltage of thousands of volts per meter, generating currents accordingly.
And don't lost it! A lone, high altitude, nuclear detonation of 1 Megaton, 500Km over the center of USA, Europe or Russia could destroy great part of the electronics... So, welcome to the 19th century (with people of the 21th)...

Ah! The links seems interesting. I will take them a look today.

Arreveure!

[jester]

I have heard you can build a cage as EMP sheilding and have it grounded. So it doesn't have to be a solider metal box. I am wondering if one could do so with say, chainlink fencing on the inside of say, your garage or an out building, and then have that grounded. And have foam matting on the floor of the structure.

Or, maybe a metal building like the metal storage sheds or even a quanset hut, again with a ruberized floor in addition to the building being grounded and of course not having any of your eletrical components you want to save touching or even close to the walls or ceiling.

Just something I wondered about, as when it comes to electronics if it doesn't work past the "on" button then I am lost

[Marc]

Mmmm... I suppose that some of this methods may be effective. Basically you must create a Faraday box (not sure if this is the correct English term) and be sure that all the potential is discharged on ground... I know that a conventional Faraday box can be created with a web of conductors instead of solid metallic walls. But with an EMP... who knows!
And this make me think that the use of a high altitude nuclear explosion to produce an EMP must be in the plans of the US and Russia since the its discovering... Ok, I suppose it was evident , but until I always have viewed the EMP's as a side effect. Nor as a tactic.

[jester]

Well, I know alot of military equipment was what was called "hardened" which means it was in theory built to withstand the EMP. As for the use of EMP as a tactic, I am sure it was figured into the use of such weapons and probably had something to do with determining the size of the nuclear weapon.

[Mohoender]

Bona nit Mohoender!

I see a weak point in the last half of your post. The EMP generates an inductive current in all electrical and electronic circuits. This current induced in the conductor materials implies fatal consequences for the electronic parts, which are specifically designed to work with very low voltages and currents. But this current is induced no matter if the component is online or offline. Basically, the conductors would be working as an antenna, their electrons in phase with the wave of the electronic pulse, which is, basically, an electromagnetic wave of great power and short duration. So, your old computers in storage will be fried anyway, I think.

Arreveure!

Agree with your point and that will certainly be the case for my newest car. Might not be the case with the computers (especially with the labtop) as battery is dead and out. Still it is possible but I don't know enough to be entirely sure. In T2K the worst I can imagine is that EMP will be on for sometime as it is not a one day exchange, what wasn't fried one day might be the next day.

[Matt Wiser]

Regarding military vehicles and EMP: there's an EMP simulator at Kirtland AFB in New Mexico that I remember seeing pictures of planes parked under it for tests, to see how well shielded they were from EMP. Every U.S. military plane (and presumably those from NATO allies) was tested there in the 1980s, I do believe. They also tested Army and Marine equipment, and the Navy has (or had) a barge with a similar piece of equipment for testing ships' electronics as part of their acceptance trials. Any military vehicle (air, land, or sea) in the 1970s and '80s had to be designed for a nuclear environment, and EMP testing was part of the test phase. Presumably that test facility is still going today.

[kato13]

The EMP testing facility is the largest wood structure in the world constructed totally without metal fasteners.



Map of the testing facility.

http://maps.google.com/mapsq=35.025281+N,+106.562284+W&ie=UTF8&t=h&ll=35.030875,-106.558456&spn=0.007257,0.021973&z=16&iwloc=addr

[Targan]

Mmmm... I suppose that some of this methods may be effective. Basically you must create a Faraday box (not sure if this is the correct English term) and be sure that all the potential is discharged on ground...

Faraday cage in English, but what you say about EMP is correct.

[Dogger]

If I remember the .v1 history correctly I dont think there was ever a mention of either side using high altitude nuclear airbursts for large scale EMP effects.

If that is indeed the case, then the only EMP effects should be from the nukes that were airburst directly over there targets (a few thousand feet high.) this would cause the EMP effects to be quite localized I believe.

Which could mean large rural areas with functioning electronics still worthless of course without power or fuel.

I know a guy who flew in B-52s in the <80s and <90s, and he did tell me once on this subject that most NATO aircraft were EMP hardened to some degreebut he said that you would be surprised to find that very few base facilities (including spare parts rooms/warehouses) had any EMP shielding at all. Some of the comm. was protected, but the power grid was notor even vital electronics in the airbase towers and CICs.